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I admire Tim Bray's contributions to our industry, his tireless pursuit to use his privilige and status to advocate for improvements to diversity and inclusion.

I admire Tim Bray's contributions to our industry, his tireless pursuit to use his privilige and status to advocate for improvements to diversity and inclusion. I also believe in his genuine reasons and motivations for resigning, and the integrity it showed. (Obligatory: yes, he's in his 60s who's made millions, at some point you gotta retire, and it's easy to show integrity when you clearly don't need to work again) Having said that, I'm kind of surprised he's surprised by the overall reaction that he got when he quit, and in interviews since then. It's popular, easy, and desirable to dunk on Amazon. It's the best form of mainstream journalistic clickbait because it brings in and unites the left (who want improved worker rights, and Jeff B is a poster child for wealth imbalance) and the right (who are mad at Jeff's perceived left-leaning politics and criticism of Donald Trump via the Washington Post). It is NOT popular to question the very fabric of our western capitalism. Overtures about unsustainable wealth inequality do not resonate well in the mainstream. At the fringes, the right blames the rest of the world, and looks to isolate; the left is readying the guillotines. I think Tim should have known that his message would be misconstrued by both other Amazonians who remained and wrote defensive blog posts, and the rest of the world who's holding him up as some Anti-Amazon Crusader. I believe his mistake was to immediately start talking about worker's rights when his actual ethical qualm was about the chilling effect of silencing whistleblowers. But...then he wouldn't have had the NYTimes writing follow ups months later.

pm90 6y ago
The ability to not be punished for speaking out as a worker is precisely one of the worker rights that he is seeking to protect.
- deanCommie 6y ago
  Technically the fired whistleblowers were cushy whitecollar office workers. Yes, i know i just said "worker" but that's not really what we all imagine when we think about Amazon workers that need more protections.
  - kennywinker 6y ago
    I think the idea that "cushy" tech workers don't need protection is really insidious. It seems to me like it helps keep the white-collar workers on the side of management, rather than realizing that they actually have a bunch in common with the less well-paid worker. Yes, there are MUCH MUCH more vulnerable people working at amazon, but that doesn't mean the better-off workers don't also need protection e.g. against wage fixing https://time.com/76655/google-apple-settle-wage-fixing-lawsuit/ https://time.com/76655/google-apple-settle-wage-fixing-lawsu... or the normalizing of 50-60hour work weeks. And specifically, that forming some kind of a protective structure where workers of all levels band together to advocate for their shared interests could be a good idea. Still brainstorming names for that structure... combination? group? unitement? unification? idk anybody with a good idea shoot me a dm
    - ShroudedNight 6y ago
      > It seems to me like it helps keep the white-collar workers on the side of management, rather than realizing that they actually have a bunch in common with the less well-paid worker. This is especially pernicious given that fundamental facility and process design decisions are made by the 'white-collar workers'. I wonder, for example, how bathroom or break-room access in Amazon fulfillment centres would change if the tech people shared a coffee or equivalent with people that work in pick+pack on a frequent and regular basis.
      - Apocryphon 6y ago
        White collar workers are not a monolithic class. The MBAs making those process decisions are different from minimum-wage contractors doing content moderation at Facebook, for instance.
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    They are still workers. Dividing ourselves into office workers and FC workers just causes am unnecessary rift. Both worker groups need protections and should support each other in achieving them. Solidarity is important.
- zo1 6y ago
  Do we include people like James Damore in that classification then? My impression is that we're all in agreement with this "workers right to speak out" until we find someone we don't particularly like the opinion of, then it goes out the window.
  - pm90 6y ago
    No we don’t include James Damore and there is ample material out there explaining why not eg https://qz.com/1049107/james-damore-and-the-google-diversity-memo-freedom-of-speech-is-limited-in-the-american-workplace/ https://qz.com/1049107/james-damore-and-the-google-diversity....
chrisseaton 6y ago
> Obligatory: yes, he's in his 60s who's made millions, at some point you gotta retire, and it's easy to show integrity when you clearly don't need to work again > Having said that, I'm kind of surprised he's surprised by the overall reaction that he got when he quit, and in interviews since then. I wonder if he got any advice when doing these interviews. The photographs used for his NYT interview are of him... posing on his private boat. It's like they were designed to make him look like a millionaire hypocrite who has retired with as much as they could from Amazon and now criticising while swimming in the money. He's been somewhat set up here by whoever managed this interview.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Since when has a small motorboat with pickups in the background looked like swimming in the money?
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    Most people can't afford any kind of boat. But anyway the point is - at some point he was in a conversation about what kind of photos to use to illustrate his article about how the company he's been working at for years doesn't treat it's employees very nicely. And someone suggested - 'how about we take some photos of you posing at the controls of your luxury leisure vehicle' and he said yes, which was a mistake because whoever suggested it was either deliberately setting him up or not the right person to be advising him. You couldn't come up with a better visual metaphor for hypocrisy if you were trying - and clearly someone was trying.
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      I agree that most people can't afford any sort of boat, but if memory serves, that'd still be a working class marina in the states. Far from a luxury leisure vehicle. I would think the opposite, that it would show solidarity. His outfit might be whatever the current equivalent of Patagucci would be, but is otherwise unremarkable Pacific Northwest, sandals being common due to frequent rain. The series 2 landy might be middle class, in that I suspect it costs nearly as much to run as to acquire, but very few would consider series landies luxury leisure vehicles, either. They're closer to a real tractor than a Chelsea Tractor. ...then again, a new Chelsea Tractor is probably much cheaper than a new real tractor :-)

pm90 6y ago

The ability to not be punished for speaking out as a worker is precisely one of the worker rights that he is seeking to protect.

deanCommie 6y ago
Technically the fired whistleblowers were cushy whitecollar office workers. Yes, i know i just said "worker" but that's not really what we all imagine when we think about Amazon workers that need more protections.
- kennywinker 6y ago
  I think the idea that "cushy" tech workers don't need protection is really insidious. It seems to me like it helps keep the white-collar workers on the side of management, rather than realizing that they actually have a bunch in common with the less well-paid worker. Yes, there are MUCH MUCH more vulnerable people working at amazon, but that doesn't mean the better-off workers don't also need protection e.g. against wage fixing https://time.com/76655/google-apple-settle-wage-fixing-lawsuit/ https://time.com/76655/google-apple-settle-wage-fixing-lawsu... or the normalizing of 50-60hour work weeks. And specifically, that forming some kind of a protective structure where workers of all levels band together to advocate for their shared interests could be a good idea. Still brainstorming names for that structure... combination? group? unitement? unification? idk anybody with a good idea shoot me a dm
  - ShroudedNight 6y ago
    > It seems to me like it helps keep the white-collar workers on the side of management, rather than realizing that they actually have a bunch in common with the less well-paid worker. This is especially pernicious given that fundamental facility and process design decisions are made by the 'white-collar workers'. I wonder, for example, how bathroom or break-room access in Amazon fulfillment centres would change if the tech people shared a coffee or equivalent with people that work in pick+pack on a frequent and regular basis.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      White collar workers are not a monolithic class. The MBAs making those process decisions are different from minimum-wage contractors doing content moderation at Facebook, for instance.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  They are still workers. Dividing ourselves into office workers and FC workers just causes am unnecessary rift. Both worker groups need protections and should support each other in achieving them. Solidarity is important.
zo1 6y ago
Do we include people like James Damore in that classification then? My impression is that we're all in agreement with this "workers right to speak out" until we find someone we don't particularly like the opinion of, then it goes out the window.
- pm90 6y ago
  No we don’t include James Damore and there is ample material out there explaining why not eg https://qz.com/1049107/james-damore-and-the-google-diversity-memo-freedom-of-speech-is-limited-in-the-american-workplace/ https://qz.com/1049107/james-damore-and-the-google-diversity....

chrisseaton 6y ago

> Obligatory: yes, he's in his 60s who's made millions, at some point you gotta retire, and it's easy to show integrity when you clearly don't need to work again > Having said that, I'm kind of surprised he's surprised by the overall reaction that he got when he quit, and in interviews since then. I wonder if he got any advice when doing these interviews. The photographs used for his NYT interview are of him... posing on his private boat. It's like they were designed to make him look like a millionaire hypocrite who has retired with as much as they could from Amazon and now criticising while swimming in the money. He's been somewhat set up here by whoever managed this interview.

082349872349872 6y ago
Since when has a small motorboat with pickups in the background looked like swimming in the money?
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  Most people can't afford any kind of boat. But anyway the point is - at some point he was in a conversation about what kind of photos to use to illustrate his article about how the company he's been working at for years doesn't treat it's employees very nicely. And someone suggested - 'how about we take some photos of you posing at the controls of your luxury leisure vehicle' and he said yes, which was a mistake because whoever suggested it was either deliberately setting him up or not the right person to be advising him. You couldn't come up with a better visual metaphor for hypocrisy if you were trying - and clearly someone was trying.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    I agree that most people can't afford any sort of boat, but if memory serves, that'd still be a working class marina in the states. Far from a luxury leisure vehicle. I would think the opposite, that it would show solidarity. His outfit might be whatever the current equivalent of Patagucci would be, but is otherwise unremarkable Pacific Northwest, sandals being common due to frequent rain. The series 2 landy might be middle class, in that I suspect it costs nearly as much to run as to acquire, but very few would consider series landies luxury leisure vehicles, either. They're closer to a real tractor than a Chelsea Tractor. ...then again, a new Chelsea Tractor is probably much cheaper than a new real tractor :-)