6 ms·

I have switched to Outlook.com for my main private business email and protonmail for emailing friends. Will back out of Google slowly over the next 5 years. Th

I have switched to Outlook.com for my main private business email and protonmail for emailing friends. Will back out of Google slowly over the next 5 years. The countdown has started.

dilyevsky 6y ago
Google pulls in more functionality into core services. Hn crowd: monopoly! Google pulls out rarely used features. Hn crowd: am I supposed use different app now?!? Not defending google here - there have been some highly questionable product decisions over the years, but this is just silly. Also how is outlook any better? Another public megacorp with even deeper government ties. As someone who grew up in the 90s i still remember Microsoft as more successful and meaner oracle.
- D895n9o33436N42 6y ago
  > Also how is outlook any better? Google: our business is ads, and you’re the product. Put more of your data into Gmail so that we can show you more ads and do a million other things that benefit us. Microsoft: our business is software and services and hardware and a bunch of other stuff you can pay us money for. E-mail service is the product, and you’re the customer.
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    Literally Microsoft: """Microsoft uses the data we collect to provide you with rich, interactive experiences. In particular, we use data to: [etc and so forth]; Advertise and market to you, which includes sending promotional communications, targeting advertising, and presenting you with relevant offers."""
  - 0d311 6y ago
    Then why are there ads in my Windows 10 OS? Why the aggressive data sponging behavior? Microsoft is a lot better than Google, but I still feel like I am their product when I use their OS.
    - tux1968 6y ago
      It's much more insidious at the operating system level. It's easier to change email providers than your entire operating system. I'm shocked there isn't a louder outcry over Microsoft's intrusions this way into Windows.
  - dilyevsky 6y ago
    If Microsoft doesn’t show you ads why is “Upgrade to ad-free Premium” a thing? You can turn off ads by buying g suite (albeit its more expensive) or just use adblock of some kind.
  - userbinator 6y ago
    That's the old Microsoft. As of a few years ago, it has started to shift in the direction of Google too.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- esperent 6y ago
  So what you're saying is that tech savvy people just don't like Google? Maybe it's because of the slow drop in quality of their search engine, their tendency to cancel projects that people relied on, and their questionable privacy practices? At least, that's why I don't like them. And that's not even mentioning the pit of conspiracy theory peddling, pedophile supporting nastiness that is Youtube.
- 40four 6y ago
  I don’t have a dog in the fight, I don’t choose Gmail or Outlook. But if I were to play devil’s advocate, I think I would argue Outlook is better on the grounds that Microsoft is not an advertising company. As a company, they don’t depend on distributing free software to folks who are willing to, or maybe ignorant they are trading their personal privacy in exchange. No doubt Microsoft is trying to monetize user data at this point as well, but their empire isn’t built on top of it. The parent comment said they use ProtonMail for personal, So I suspect they only reason they don’t choose that for business also is the weight the Microsoft name still holds. Many of us got sucked into the Google vortex a while back on the basis they gave us many of the best software options, in many categories. But at this point, there is nothing Google does that you can’t find an alternative of equal or better quality. So if one day a person realizes Google values don’t align with their own, slowly phasing out all Google services can only have a net positive.
  - dilyevsky 6y ago
    Microsoft business model is trying to insert themselves as a middleman between you and device in as many ways as possible and collect toll fees. I’m not a philosopher but not sure that’s ethically superior to showing ads (also they do show you ads)
    - 40four 6y ago
      I don’t disagree, I think you’re right. I can just identify with folks trying to slowly de-google their lives, I’ve been on a similar mission around a year. The Microsoft name does still carry a lot of weight in the business world, so I suspect that’s the only reason the parent is still partially using them. If it were me I’d go ahead and go full protonmail (or others), but I get the reluctance.
    - smt88 6y ago
      > trying to insert themselves as a middleman between you and device in as many ways as possible and collect toll fees So... they're a software company? Specifically an OS vendor? Seriously, how does your description imply anything unethical? You can't even buy a device today that forces you to use MS. You can always install something else or hack your Windows installation however you want.
- monksy 6y ago
  Not really.. it just becomes harder in some cases. For example Google Reader, that went no where and they just killed it. They really could have transformed mailing lists into rss feeds. Also, google trips. That was great to plan trips about. (Although their map collections is terrible)
- notriddle 6y ago
  It's a basic You Moved My Cheese situation. Change can be good, but pointless change made for no user-visible reason is not.
- dgellow 6y ago
  > Google pulls in more functionality into core services. Hn crowd: monopoly! Google pulls out rarely used features. Hn crowd: am I supposed use different app now?!? As you surely know the HN crowd isn't a monolithic thing, it is made of a lot of people covering the entire spectrum of existing opinions. Different groups are complaining for different reasons, so that's really to be expected...
garrettm 6y ago
If your address is still backed by Gmail, you could check out our new Inbox app at https://www.twobird.com https://www.twobird.com We think the inbox should support more than just mail. Currently Gmail-only, but working on Outlook (and more) support.
WizardAustralis 6y ago
I did the samething back in 2014. Instead of 5 years it only took about 6 months. Your mileage will vary.
antpls 6y ago
I tried Protonmail then I noticed they don't freely allow you to easily download all your data, as Google does. Denying a free easy access to your own data is borderline illegal, but Protonmail is probably too small to draw attention about it.
- dgellow 6y ago
  What do you mean by "download all your data"? ProtonMail Bridge allows you to connect to your account via any email client, from which you can download your complete mailbox: https://protonmail.com/bridge/ https://protonmail.com/bridge/ Edit: there is also the Import-Export tool https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/export-import-emails/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/export-import-.... And an export action from the web interface (though that's only for individual emails, so not practical for mass download).
  - antpls 6y ago
    First sentence of your second link : "If you’re a ProtonMail free user, you can export emails individually and save them locally on your device". Good luck when you have 3000 emails and you are physically disabled. In other words, signing in and using the service is "free", but you must pay to quit it or move to another provider. There are also many other data than just emails : contact list, your private keys, the folders/tags you used, and all other personal data that Protomail may have about you. Facebook and Google allow you to download a single zip of _all_ your data, at any time you wish, _for free_. They do it because it is required by the _law_, not because they are being nice. So, yep. I would send a big warning to anyone who wants to try Protonmail, because Protonmail's terms of service uses dark pattern in that regard, and probably illegal in EU or California.
    - dgellow 6y ago
      So you’re talking specifically about the FREE tier, not the Prontomail service itself. If you want to get an export of all the data they have on you, you can send them a request via their support, they are compliant with Swiss privacy shield which is basically a more strict version of GDPR. They have 30 days to comply once the request has been sent to them. Nothing to do with a dark pattern.

I have switched to Outlook.com for my main private business email and protonmail for emailing friends. Will back out of Google slowly over the next 5 years. The countdown has started.

dilyevsky 6y ago

Google pulls in more functionality into core services. Hn crowd: monopoly! Google pulls out rarely used features. Hn crowd: am I supposed use different app now?!? Not defending google here - there have been some highly questionable product decisions over the years, but this is just silly. Also how is outlook any better? Another public megacorp with even deeper government ties. As someone who grew up in the 90s i still remember Microsoft as more successful and meaner oracle.

D895n9o33436N42 6y ago
> Also how is outlook any better? Google: our business is ads, and you’re the product. Put more of your data into Gmail so that we can show you more ads and do a million other things that benefit us. Microsoft: our business is software and services and hardware and a bunch of other stuff you can pay us money for. E-mail service is the product, and you’re the customer.
- jeffbee 6y ago
  Literally Microsoft: """Microsoft uses the data we collect to provide you with rich, interactive experiences. In particular, we use data to: [etc and so forth]; Advertise and market to you, which includes sending promotional communications, targeting advertising, and presenting you with relevant offers."""
- 0d311 6y ago
  Then why are there ads in my Windows 10 OS? Why the aggressive data sponging behavior? Microsoft is a lot better than Google, but I still feel like I am their product when I use their OS.
  - tux1968 6y ago
    It's much more insidious at the operating system level. It's easier to change email providers than your entire operating system. I'm shocked there isn't a louder outcry over Microsoft's intrusions this way into Windows.
- dilyevsky 6y ago
  If Microsoft doesn’t show you ads why is “Upgrade to ad-free Premium” a thing? You can turn off ads by buying g suite (albeit its more expensive) or just use adblock of some kind.
- userbinator 6y ago
  That's the old Microsoft. As of a few years ago, it has started to shift in the direction of Google too.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
esperent 6y ago
So what you're saying is that tech savvy people just don't like Google? Maybe it's because of the slow drop in quality of their search engine, their tendency to cancel projects that people relied on, and their questionable privacy practices? At least, that's why I don't like them. And that's not even mentioning the pit of conspiracy theory peddling, pedophile supporting nastiness that is Youtube.
40four 6y ago
I don’t have a dog in the fight, I don’t choose Gmail or Outlook. But if I were to play devil’s advocate, I think I would argue Outlook is better on the grounds that Microsoft is not an advertising company. As a company, they don’t depend on distributing free software to folks who are willing to, or maybe ignorant they are trading their personal privacy in exchange. No doubt Microsoft is trying to monetize user data at this point as well, but their empire isn’t built on top of it. The parent comment said they use ProtonMail for personal, So I suspect they only reason they don’t choose that for business also is the weight the Microsoft name still holds. Many of us got sucked into the Google vortex a while back on the basis they gave us many of the best software options, in many categories. But at this point, there is nothing Google does that you can’t find an alternative of equal or better quality. So if one day a person realizes Google values don’t align with their own, slowly phasing out all Google services can only have a net positive.
- dilyevsky 6y ago
  Microsoft business model is trying to insert themselves as a middleman between you and device in as many ways as possible and collect toll fees. I’m not a philosopher but not sure that’s ethically superior to showing ads (also they do show you ads)
  - 40four 6y ago
    I don’t disagree, I think you’re right. I can just identify with folks trying to slowly de-google their lives, I’ve been on a similar mission around a year. The Microsoft name does still carry a lot of weight in the business world, so I suspect that’s the only reason the parent is still partially using them. If it were me I’d go ahead and go full protonmail (or others), but I get the reluctance.
  - smt88 6y ago
    > trying to insert themselves as a middleman between you and device in as many ways as possible and collect toll fees So... they're a software company? Specifically an OS vendor? Seriously, how does your description imply anything unethical? You can't even buy a device today that forces you to use MS. You can always install something else or hack your Windows installation however you want.
monksy 6y ago
Not really.. it just becomes harder in some cases. For example Google Reader, that went no where and they just killed it. They really could have transformed mailing lists into rss feeds. Also, google trips. That was great to plan trips about. (Although their map collections is terrible)
notriddle 6y ago
It's a basic You Moved My Cheese situation. Change can be good, but pointless change made for no user-visible reason is not.
dgellow 6y ago
> Google pulls in more functionality into core services. Hn crowd: monopoly! Google pulls out rarely used features. Hn crowd: am I supposed use different app now?!? As you surely know the HN crowd isn't a monolithic thing, it is made of a lot of people covering the entire spectrum of existing opinions. Different groups are complaining for different reasons, so that's really to be expected...

garrettm 6y ago

If your address is still backed by Gmail, you could check out our new Inbox app at https://www.twobird.com https://www.twobird.com We think the inbox should support more than just mail. Currently Gmail-only, but working on Outlook (and more) support.

WizardAustralis 6y ago

I did the samething back in 2014. Instead of 5 years it only took about 6 months. Your mileage will vary.

antpls 6y ago

I tried Protonmail then I noticed they don't freely allow you to easily download all your data, as Google does. Denying a free easy access to your own data is borderline illegal, but Protonmail is probably too small to draw attention about it.

dgellow 6y ago
What do you mean by "download all your data"? ProtonMail Bridge allows you to connect to your account via any email client, from which you can download your complete mailbox: https://protonmail.com/bridge/ https://protonmail.com/bridge/ Edit: there is also the Import-Export tool https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/export-import-emails/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/export-import-.... And an export action from the web interface (though that's only for individual emails, so not practical for mass download).
- antpls 6y ago
  First sentence of your second link : "If you’re a ProtonMail free user, you can export emails individually and save them locally on your device". Good luck when you have 3000 emails and you are physically disabled. In other words, signing in and using the service is "free", but you must pay to quit it or move to another provider. There are also many other data than just emails : contact list, your private keys, the folders/tags you used, and all other personal data that Protomail may have about you. Facebook and Google allow you to download a single zip of _all_ your data, at any time you wish, _for free_. They do it because it is required by the _law_, not because they are being nice. So, yep. I would send a big warning to anyone who wants to try Protonmail, because Protonmail's terms of service uses dark pattern in that regard, and probably illegal in EU or California.
  - dgellow 6y ago
    So you’re talking specifically about the FREE tier, not the Prontomail service itself. If you want to get an export of all the data they have on you, you can send them a request via their support, they are compliant with Swiss privacy shield which is basically a more strict version of GDPR. They have 30 days to comply once the request has been sent to them. Nothing to do with a dark pattern.