4 ms·

I really couldn't disagree more with the notion that the messaging is unified. No science supports masking for the general population. New Zealand, which is tou

I really couldn't disagree more with the notion that the messaging is unified. No science supports masking for the general population. New Zealand, which is touted as the gold standard (however ridiculous a comparison to anything else it might be) doesn't mask and advises against it: https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-health-advice-general-public/covid-19-use-face-masks-community https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/... (individual sources here https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/review_of_science_and_policy_around_face_masks_and_covid-19-15may2020.pdf https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/revi...) Scandinavia can't agree on policies. Americans are physically fighting each other over it, in probably the funniest overt display of criminal obedience. It was fomites, so don't touch anything, and don't touch your face. Now there are no fomites, and definitely put a dirty rag on your face at all times. I'd go back to 9/11 over this cluster fuck in a heartbeat.

vore 6y ago
New Zealand is not really the best example here given they have no community transmission: I can understand different scenarios having different recommendations.
darkerside 6y ago
That link doesn't advise against mask wearing. I'd recommend you revise your summary or indicate where in the article you are reading that. > They are therefore not a substitute for basic hygiene measures and physical distancing, where possible and practical. That was the strongest wording "against" that I saw. And that is the typical "no evidence" disclaimer, not an evidence of no proof or evidence of harm. Your post is misleading. It takes a bulletin from a country where COVID had been essentially eliminated, and implied that it's guidelines are appropriate for others where infection is rampant.
- ibejoeb 6y ago
  It's all contained in the sources provided in the footnotes of the page: https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/review_of_science_and_policy_around_face_masks_and_covid-19-15may2020.pdf https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/revi... But, listen, if you have better information, I'm all ears. The whole point is to be directed by science, and right now, you're not going to find hard science, i.e., RCTs, to support the prevailing policies.
  - darkerside 6y ago
    https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094 https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094
  - anko 6y ago
    The problem with pointing to New Zealand for information is they never had widespread community transmission. Australia had the same no mask policy until such a point that they had community transmission and now they are forcing masks where most transmission is occurring. From the page you link > This advice on use of face masks in the community will be updated if new evidence or guidance from the World Health Organization emerges, or we see a change in COVID-19 disease patterns in New Zealand (for example, increasing community transmission). So they are simply not advocating masks due to low community transmission.
    - ibejoeb 6y ago
      I understand the counterargument to using NZ. I'm saying you can't have it both ways. That is just a side effect, anyway. My main counter claim to the top-level comment is that the messaging is not uniform. As an example, I've pointed out that policy differs between neighboring areas, and, indeed, policy differs from science. There is an entire section of the attached material under the heading "Risks and pitfalls." I didn't write it, so forgive me if I'm not too upset that people don't like it.
      - darkerside 6y ago
        I think the message is uniform at this point that, if you are in a COVID hot zone, you should be wearing a mask. Claiming that is not the case and providing irrelevant examples can rightly be met with anger because it undermines the uniformity of that message. EDIT: For the record, I'm not angry :)
  - endogui 6y ago
    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e2.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e2.htm Tl;dr: When both parties wear marks, both cloth and N95 masks are likely sufficient for mitigating infections in enclosed spaces.
pwdisswordfish2 6y ago
There are a number of companies focused on making masks in the US. Anyone know the current sales figures? Unless I am mistaken, NZ did not ask (=require) the general public to wear masks because the NZ government was primarily following information disseminated through the WHO as guidance.
- taneq 6y ago
  > Unless I am mistaken, NZ did not ask (=require) the general public to wear masks because the NZ government was primarily following information disseminated through the WHO as guidance. That is my understanding also. And now the WHO has (after many months of proclaiming masks as useless) turned around and started advocating for them. The WHO also denied that COVID-19 was a pandemic far beyond the point where it was clearly exploding in many regions, while insisting that all airline flights should continue as normal, and probably contributed significantly to the speed and scale of the global pandemic by doing so. I wouldn't place any credence in old WHO statements regarding this virus (or, honestly, in anything the WHO says after their performance here).
ximeng 6y ago
Your link from NZ doesn’t advise against masks: “Healthy members of the public may choose to purchase and wear a face mask, or make their own.“ Scandinavia is not a unified political entity. US in-fighting more worrying than funny.
pbourke 6y ago
> No science supports masking for the general population. How’s this for science: look at the statistics for nations which had near-100% mask compliance (Taiwan, SK, Japan). Look at the animal study on hamsters separated by walls made of surgical masks. The resistance to masks in the US is just insanity.
- refurb 6y ago
  Taiwan, SK and Japan are doing a lot more things than just wearing masks. Not sure I’d attribute all of their success in keeping cases low to masks alone.
  - taneq 6y ago
    Japanese are still packing themselves into crowded trains. 'Attributing all of their success [...] to masks alone' is a strawman, masks are clearly helping there.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    You want to see some amazing stats? https://english.metro.taipei/cp.aspx?n=C702FF0562802D53 https://english.metro.taipei/cp.aspx?n=C702FF0562802D53 Check the average daily ridership every month, compare against the previous year. No matter what else they do, they're still on the trains. Even in the worst months, 2/3rds as many rides were taken. Social distancing? Psh. If you're curious, NY MTA reports -75% right now. That's right. Taipei -33% at worst, NY MTA -75%. Which city was worse hit? Which city was hit first? Which city was closer?
    - refurb 6y ago
      Sure, but those countries were also doing a ton of testing, contact tracing and strict quarantines (even very early in the epidemic). Masks are certainly a part of of it, but I wouldn't assign the entire impact to them.
- ibejoeb 6y ago
  You mean like NZ?

vore 6y ago

New Zealand is not really the best example here given they have no community transmission: I can understand different scenarios having different recommendations.

darkerside 6y ago

That link doesn't advise against mask wearing. I'd recommend you revise your summary or indicate where in the article you are reading that. > They are therefore not a substitute for basic hygiene measures and physical distancing, where possible and practical. That was the strongest wording "against" that I saw. And that is the typical "no evidence" disclaimer, not an evidence of no proof or evidence of harm. Your post is misleading. It takes a bulletin from a country where COVID had been essentially eliminated, and implied that it's guidelines are appropriate for others where infection is rampant.

ibejoeb 6y ago
It's all contained in the sources provided in the footnotes of the page: https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/review_of_science_and_policy_around_face_masks_and_covid-19-15may2020.pdf https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/revi... But, listen, if you have better information, I'm all ears. The whole point is to be directed by science, and right now, you're not going to find hard science, i.e., RCTs, to support the prevailing policies.
- darkerside 6y ago
  https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094 https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094
- anko 6y ago
  The problem with pointing to New Zealand for information is they never had widespread community transmission. Australia had the same no mask policy until such a point that they had community transmission and now they are forcing masks where most transmission is occurring. From the page you link > This advice on use of face masks in the community will be updated if new evidence or guidance from the World Health Organization emerges, or we see a change in COVID-19 disease patterns in New Zealand (for example, increasing community transmission). So they are simply not advocating masks due to low community transmission.
  - ibejoeb 6y ago
    I understand the counterargument to using NZ. I'm saying you can't have it both ways. That is just a side effect, anyway. My main counter claim to the top-level comment is that the messaging is not uniform. As an example, I've pointed out that policy differs between neighboring areas, and, indeed, policy differs from science. There is an entire section of the attached material under the heading "Risks and pitfalls." I didn't write it, so forgive me if I'm not too upset that people don't like it.
    - darkerside 6y ago
      I think the message is uniform at this point that, if you are in a COVID hot zone, you should be wearing a mask. Claiming that is not the case and providing irrelevant examples can rightly be met with anger because it undermines the uniformity of that message. EDIT: For the record, I'm not angry :)
- endogui 6y ago
  https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e2.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e2.htm Tl;dr: When both parties wear marks, both cloth and N95 masks are likely sufficient for mitigating infections in enclosed spaces.

pwdisswordfish2 6y ago

There are a number of companies focused on making masks in the US. Anyone know the current sales figures? Unless I am mistaken, NZ did not ask (=require) the general public to wear masks because the NZ government was primarily following information disseminated through the WHO as guidance.

taneq 6y ago
> Unless I am mistaken, NZ did not ask (=require) the general public to wear masks because the NZ government was primarily following information disseminated through the WHO as guidance. That is my understanding also. And now the WHO has (after many months of proclaiming masks as useless) turned around and started advocating for them. The WHO also denied that COVID-19 was a pandemic far beyond the point where it was clearly exploding in many regions, while insisting that all airline flights should continue as normal, and probably contributed significantly to the speed and scale of the global pandemic by doing so. I wouldn't place any credence in old WHO statements regarding this virus (or, honestly, in anything the WHO says after their performance here).

ximeng 6y ago

Your link from NZ doesn’t advise against masks: “Healthy members of the public may choose to purchase and wear a face mask, or make their own.“ Scandinavia is not a unified political entity. US in-fighting more worrying than funny.

pbourke 6y ago

> No science supports masking for the general population. How’s this for science: look at the statistics for nations which had near-100% mask compliance (Taiwan, SK, Japan). Look at the animal study on hamsters separated by walls made of surgical masks. The resistance to masks in the US is just insanity.

refurb 6y ago
Taiwan, SK and Japan are doing a lot more things than just wearing masks. Not sure I’d attribute all of their success in keeping cases low to masks alone.
- taneq 6y ago
  Japanese are still packing themselves into crowded trains. 'Attributing all of their success [...] to masks alone' is a strawman, masks are clearly helping there.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  You want to see some amazing stats? https://english.metro.taipei/cp.aspx?n=C702FF0562802D53 https://english.metro.taipei/cp.aspx?n=C702FF0562802D53 Check the average daily ridership every month, compare against the previous year. No matter what else they do, they're still on the trains. Even in the worst months, 2/3rds as many rides were taken. Social distancing? Psh. If you're curious, NY MTA reports -75% right now. That's right. Taipei -33% at worst, NY MTA -75%. Which city was worse hit? Which city was hit first? Which city was closer?
  - refurb 6y ago
    Sure, but those countries were also doing a ton of testing, contact tracing and strict quarantines (even very early in the epidemic). Masks are certainly a part of of it, but I wouldn't assign the entire impact to them.
ibejoeb 6y ago
You mean like NZ?