3 ms·

Well put. My dad would say (pre-WAR) that it cost him at least 100-150 home runs, likely putting him ahead of Willie Mays and behind only Ruth and Aaron (among

Well put. My dad would say (pre-WAR) that it cost him at least 100-150 home runs, likely putting him ahead of Willie Mays and behind only Ruth and Aaron (among pre-steroid era players).

itsoktocry 6y ago
>(among pre-steroid era players). I find this unfair to Barry Bonds. Yes, he was an asshole. Yes, he took steroids. But this idea that he suddenly became good (or that steroids make anyone "good" in baseball) goes too far. It certainly allowed him to stretch his career out, but as a guy who grew up cheering for Bonds since he was a young man playing for the Pirates, who wouldn't want that? My point here is to have a look at some of his career in earnest. He was always a fantastic ball player (led the league in OPS from 1990-1994). His 28-year-old campaign in 1993 was one for the ages, long before the steroid controversies. But his record-setting seasons are video game level. He was intentionally walked 120 times in 2004! https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bondsba01.shtml https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bondsba01.shtml There is no way he should be left out of greatest-ever conversations.
- redshirtrob 6y ago
  I don't think anyone has ever argued steroids made Bonds good (IMHO he was already a first ballot HOFer). It's pretty well understood that they aid in recovery. Bonds' most transcendent stretch came when most ballplayer's production is falling off or completely disappearing. He put up 47 WAR during his age 37-41 seasons. That's unheard of. Given those seasons coincide with when he was using the cream and the clear, it's fair to call into question some of his counting numbers. Being charitable, let's say he would have put up 23 WAR during those seasons[0]. That would leave him about 140 career WAR and around 660 HRs. That's solid Mays territory. He would still be in the conversation for best ever. Mays certainly is. So it comes down to how you value those steroid seasons. Some folks want to throw it all out. Some folks (HOF voters) want to subtract points. Some folks think it didn't matter. We can never know. Just like we can never know how Ruth would have done in an integrated league. [0] Given what we know about aging curves this is unlikely. But Bonds was a special athlete and it's not totally unheard of for players that age to have really good seasons.

Well put. My dad would say (pre-WAR) that it cost him at least 100-150 home runs, likely putting him ahead of Willie Mays and behind only Ruth and Aaron (among pre-steroid era players).

itsoktocry 6y ago

>(among pre-steroid era players). I find this unfair to Barry Bonds. Yes, he was an asshole. Yes, he took steroids. But this idea that he suddenly became good (or that steroids make anyone "good" in baseball) goes too far. It certainly allowed him to stretch his career out, but as a guy who grew up cheering for Bonds since he was a young man playing for the Pirates, who wouldn't want that? My point here is to have a look at some of his career in earnest. He was always a fantastic ball player (led the league in OPS from 1990-1994). His 28-year-old campaign in 1993 was one for the ages, long before the steroid controversies. But his record-setting seasons are video game level. He was intentionally walked 120 times in 2004! https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bondsba01.shtml https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bondsba01.shtml There is no way he should be left out of greatest-ever conversations.

redshirtrob 6y ago
I don't think anyone has ever argued steroids made Bonds good (IMHO he was already a first ballot HOFer). It's pretty well understood that they aid in recovery. Bonds' most transcendent stretch came when most ballplayer's production is falling off or completely disappearing. He put up 47 WAR during his age 37-41 seasons. That's unheard of. Given those seasons coincide with when he was using the cream and the clear, it's fair to call into question some of his counting numbers. Being charitable, let's say he would have put up 23 WAR during those seasons[0]. That would leave him about 140 career WAR and around 660 HRs. That's solid Mays territory. He would still be in the conversation for best ever. Mays certainly is. So it comes down to how you value those steroid seasons. Some folks want to throw it all out. Some folks (HOF voters) want to subtract points. Some folks think it didn't matter. We can never know. Just like we can never know how Ruth would have done in an integrated league. [0] Given what we know about aging curves this is unlikely. But Bonds was a special athlete and it's not totally unheard of for players that age to have really good seasons.