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It’s not like the software industry was a bastion of societal morality in the first place. It was created chiefly to win wars and delabourize industry. Kraft 1

by sunir 6y ago

It’s not like the software industry was a bastion of societal morality in the first place. It was created chiefly to win wars and delabourize industry. Kraft 1977 is my favourite Marxist analysis of the software industry. https://www.amazon.com/Programmers-Managers-Routinization-Programming-Heidelberg/dp/0387902481 https://www.amazon.com/Programmers-Managers-Routinization-Pr... That being said there is an ethics of the software industry. It does not necessarily encompass an ethics of marketing but there is an ethics of privacy, security, authentication, authorization, identity, and decision making. It would seem that extending the domain of computer science ethics into the ethics of its subject domains would be an overreach. Does it make sense for computer science to apply the idea in Kraft that should overpower all other industries and thereby decide the ethics of pharmaceutical marketing, simply because it controls the means of production? It is a Marxist analysis like I said that computer scientists should properly have this power. However it is not wrong that if you are working on a project and don’t agree with its ethics that you should speak up and work to improve it. Everyone has that responsibility. It isn’t about computer science or software engineering. It’s about professionalism.

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
Well, I don't really get that analytical about it. The thing about me, is I never did the "boiling frog" thing. I went into a company with a fairly insular culture in 1990, and came out in 2017. It was sort of like being transported in a time machine. I learned the tech, but not the prevailing culture. In 1990, it was [finally] cool to be a programmer, but it was just beginning to be "lucrative." Bill Gates was sort of the only real software mogul most of us knew. Larry Ellison, and a couple of others were just beginning to flex their muscle, but they hadn't really hit their stride, yet. It is now crazy lucrative. A lot of people, make a lot of money, and they also act as cultural bellwethers for their employees and fans. Their values become the values of the workforce. Fairly standard human nature. Nothing surprising about it. Good old-fashioned "Monkey see; monkey do." As I said, I live in New York, and have been watching this happen with the finance industry since the day I moved up here. It was just a shock to encounter the same ethos in the software industry. In 1990, most of the folks that I hung out with were tech enthusiasts. We enjoyed the tech, and were happy to make a decent living off it, but most of the people I hung with considered it a vocation of love; not avarice. We were dorks, but happy dorks. Working in a team was fun, and we didn't feel the need to have the crazy competitiveness that we have today (but it was beginning, back then; I just didn't encounter it in my circle).
- sunir 6y ago
  I also feel Microserfs by Douglas Coupland is a quaint anachronism in 2020. (https://www.amazon.com/Microserfs-Douglas-Coupland/dp/0061624268 https://www.amazon.com/Microserfs-Douglas-Coupland/dp/006162...) That was an amazing moment in time and I miss it. I barely touched it but I was too young to really hold onto it myself.

by sunir 6y ago

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago

Well, I don't really get that analytical about it. The thing about me, is I never did the "boiling frog" thing. I went into a company with a fairly insular culture in 1990, and came out in 2017. It was sort of like being transported in a time machine. I learned the tech, but not the prevailing culture. In 1990, it was [finally] cool to be a programmer, but it was just beginning to be "lucrative." Bill Gates was sort of the only real software mogul most of us knew. Larry Ellison, and a couple of others were just beginning to flex their muscle, but they hadn't really hit their stride, yet. It is now crazy lucrative. A lot of people, make a lot of money, and they also act as cultural bellwethers for their employees and fans. Their values become the values of the workforce. Fairly standard human nature. Nothing surprising about it. Good old-fashioned "Monkey see; monkey do." As I said, I live in New York, and have been watching this happen with the finance industry since the day I moved up here. It was just a shock to encounter the same ethos in the software industry. In 1990, most of the folks that I hung out with were tech enthusiasts. We enjoyed the tech, and were happy to make a decent living off it, but most of the people I hung with considered it a vocation of love; not avarice. We were dorks, but happy dorks. Working in a team was fun, and we didn't feel the need to have the crazy competitiveness that we have today (but it was beginning, back then; I just didn't encounter it in my circle).

sunir 6y ago
I also feel Microserfs by Douglas Coupland is a quaint anachronism in 2020. (https://www.amazon.com/Microserfs-Douglas-Coupland/dp/0061624268 https://www.amazon.com/Microserfs-Douglas-Coupland/dp/006162...) That was an amazing moment in time and I miss it. I barely touched it but I was too young to really hold onto it myself.