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> Under the gold and silver standards, the public money supply was fixed – and could not be easily manipulated by the state (either the government or the, then

> Under the gold and silver standards, the public money supply was fixed – and could not be easily manipulated by the state (either the government or the, then non-existent, Fed). But that did not stop private bankers from leveraging public money out of thin air to create huge quantities of private money with which to fund the Robber Barons, i.e. the Jeff Bezoses, of the era. But didn't the creation of private money happen because gold was so expensive to hold and transport? Assuming Layer 2 solutions like Lightning get off the ground, Bitcoin won't have this problem, right?

sudosysgen 6y ago
Not really. The gold/silver standard refers to the monetary system where paper cash is backed by precious metals, for which it can be exchanged any time. It does not refer to literally buying things with gold. So yes, Bitcoin has all the same issues as a gold-backed currency (a gold standard). Private forms of money were created in order to help alleviate the extreme inelasticity of gold-backed currencies, which the US abandoned in 1971. So Bitcoin would have all the issues of the dollar from 1944 to 1971.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > Private forms of money were created in order to help alleviate the extreme inelasticity of gold-backed currencies, which the US abandoned in 1971. So Bitcoin would have all the issues of the dollar from 1944 to 1971. Which is when it began it's World Reserve Status, and was the reason why Capital Markets functioned and helped rebuild the West, and Japan, as well as led to the highest increase in Social Mobility the World had ever seen at that point and led to the emergence of the World's sole Super Power. I'm an Anarchist and I want to do away with the notions of Nation-states entirely, but even I cannot help but take issue with your framing of what the US Treasury did by identifying those desirable qualities and attributes as 'issues.' The issues emerge when reckless abandon is applied to what was semi-sound monetary policy and you get the perversion of Modern Money and the corruption of Markets that lead to its continual inflationary based asset bubbles and crashes because of cheap/hot money. Monetary stability is what should be desired, and for that you need a system incapable of the whims from Human Corruption. Also, I disagree, if Bitcoin lives up to its potential it remains the only really Multi-planetary monetary system in existence. Nothing else even comes close, if you want to try this experiment just try sending money during non-business hours, on a weekend to a person not in your network. So, BTC is hardly constrained to your confines.
  - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
    > the whims from Human Corruption Aside: is there a term for this style of capitalisation? I see it in 19th century texts...does it have Latin roots?
    - Melting_Harps 6y ago
      Perhaps, I've always used it to Identity a certain trait or well known entity. I often read philosophy texts from that era that did the same, never really understanding or knowing its convention but using it none-the-less. For example, I would have capitalized 'century' in your response, as you did for Latin for the same reasons.
      - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
        > philosophy texts from that era that did the same This makes sense. This isn't intended to be hurtful, but for a general audience, I'd suggest avoiding it. My first association was with Flat Earther and other nutter forums, where I think it's used as a misplaced appeal to authority, to look like Enlightenment-era texts.
kerkeslager 6y ago
Lightning has nothing to do with holding and transporting Bitcoin. Holding Bitcoin is literally free. Transporting Bitcoin can also be free, depending on what you mean by transporting.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- VikingCoder 6y ago
  > Holding Bitcoin is literally free. Interesting claim. How do you secure it, back it up, and bequeath it to people on your passing? Don't those things cost time and actual money?
  - kyboren 6y ago
    > How do you secure it, back it up, and bequeath it to people on your passing? Keep the private key, mnemonic, seed phrase, etc. only in your brain and perhaps your will, potentially split into pieces that are kept in the physical control of independent trusted entities. > Don't those things cost time and actual money? Time: yes. Actual money: perhaps, but that is not fundamentally required. For example, oral traditions are a time-honored means of transferring information to heirs. Keep in mind we're talking about just 256 bits of information. You can scratch it on a rock and bury it in your back yard if you want.
    - VikingCoder 6y ago
      Grant Imahara just died of a brain aneurysm. You can't count on whispering a password on your deathbed. Do you think a carved rock is safe and secure? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Joplin_tornado https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Joplin_tornado
      - shard 6y ago
        Not sure what your reference to the tornado was trying to point out. I could not find any references on the page to the tornado abrading away carved rock.
roenxi 6y ago
If the non-leverage path involves X dollars. The leverage path >X dollars. Unless someone is fairly explicitly trying to stop them then banks (and other businesses) will start inventing private methods of exchange, popularising them and then playing leverage games. There are extremely powerful interest groups that want money to be creatable on demand (and not subtle ones; the public loves credit). If a sound money system is in use (Gold, Bitcoin, etc) then it may hold for a long while but sooner or later be re-defined out of the system and replaced with something that can be created. The process has nothing to do with the other underlying technical realities of the sound money, the problem being solved is the soundness of the money itself.
einpoklum 6y ago
> But didn't the creation of private money happen because gold was so expensive to hold and transport? No. 1. There was creation of state and of private money, or money-of-sorts, in societies where money wasn't based on gold. 2. If transport and holding was the issue, private money could have been limited to the amount of available gold. No, that's really not the reason.

sudosysgen 6y ago

Not really. The gold/silver standard refers to the monetary system where paper cash is backed by precious metals, for which it can be exchanged any time. It does not refer to literally buying things with gold. So yes, Bitcoin has all the same issues as a gold-backed currency (a gold standard). Private forms of money were created in order to help alleviate the extreme inelasticity of gold-backed currencies, which the US abandoned in 1971. So Bitcoin would have all the issues of the dollar from 1944 to 1971.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> Private forms of money were created in order to help alleviate the extreme inelasticity of gold-backed currencies, which the US abandoned in 1971. So Bitcoin would have all the issues of the dollar from 1944 to 1971. Which is when it began it's World Reserve Status, and was the reason why Capital Markets functioned and helped rebuild the West, and Japan, as well as led to the highest increase in Social Mobility the World had ever seen at that point and led to the emergence of the World's sole Super Power. I'm an Anarchist and I want to do away with the notions of Nation-states entirely, but even I cannot help but take issue with your framing of what the US Treasury did by identifying those desirable qualities and attributes as 'issues.' The issues emerge when reckless abandon is applied to what was semi-sound monetary policy and you get the perversion of Modern Money and the corruption of Markets that lead to its continual inflationary based asset bubbles and crashes because of cheap/hot money. Monetary stability is what should be desired, and for that you need a system incapable of the whims from Human Corruption. Also, I disagree, if Bitcoin lives up to its potential it remains the only really Multi-planetary monetary system in existence. Nothing else even comes close, if you want to try this experiment just try sending money during non-business hours, on a weekend to a person not in your network. So, BTC is hardly constrained to your confines.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > the whims from Human Corruption Aside: is there a term for this style of capitalisation? I see it in 19th century texts...does it have Latin roots?
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    Perhaps, I've always used it to Identity a certain trait or well known entity. I often read philosophy texts from that era that did the same, never really understanding or knowing its convention but using it none-the-less. For example, I would have capitalized 'century' in your response, as you did for Latin for the same reasons.
    - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
      > philosophy texts from that era that did the same This makes sense. This isn't intended to be hurtful, but for a general audience, I'd suggest avoiding it. My first association was with Flat Earther and other nutter forums, where I think it's used as a misplaced appeal to authority, to look like Enlightenment-era texts.

kerkeslager 6y ago

Lightning has nothing to do with holding and transporting Bitcoin. Holding Bitcoin is literally free. Transporting Bitcoin can also be free, depending on what you mean by transporting.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
VikingCoder 6y ago
> Holding Bitcoin is literally free. Interesting claim. How do you secure it, back it up, and bequeath it to people on your passing? Don't those things cost time and actual money?
- kyboren 6y ago
  > How do you secure it, back it up, and bequeath it to people on your passing? Keep the private key, mnemonic, seed phrase, etc. only in your brain and perhaps your will, potentially split into pieces that are kept in the physical control of independent trusted entities. > Don't those things cost time and actual money? Time: yes. Actual money: perhaps, but that is not fundamentally required. For example, oral traditions are a time-honored means of transferring information to heirs. Keep in mind we're talking about just 256 bits of information. You can scratch it on a rock and bury it in your back yard if you want.
  - VikingCoder 6y ago
    Grant Imahara just died of a brain aneurysm. You can't count on whispering a password on your deathbed. Do you think a carved rock is safe and secure? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Joplin_tornado https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Joplin_tornado
    - shard 6y ago
      Not sure what your reference to the tornado was trying to point out. I could not find any references on the page to the tornado abrading away carved rock.

roenxi 6y ago

If the non-leverage path involves X dollars. The leverage path >X dollars. Unless someone is fairly explicitly trying to stop them then banks (and other businesses) will start inventing private methods of exchange, popularising them and then playing leverage games. There are extremely powerful interest groups that want money to be creatable on demand (and not subtle ones; the public loves credit). If a sound money system is in use (Gold, Bitcoin, etc) then it may hold for a long while but sooner or later be re-defined out of the system and replaced with something that can be created. The process has nothing to do with the other underlying technical realities of the sound money, the problem being solved is the soundness of the money itself.

einpoklum 6y ago

> But didn't the creation of private money happen because gold was so expensive to hold and transport? No. 1. There was creation of state and of private money, or money-of-sorts, in societies where money wasn't based on gold. 2. If transport and holding was the issue, private money could have been limited to the amount of available gold. No, that's really not the reason.