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Most of the automated railways operate on closed tracks. Many of those even on closed platforms. Here in Germany, my hometown Nuremberg, it runs one of the firs

Most of the automated railways operate on closed tracks. Many of those even on closed platforms. Here in Germany, my hometown Nuremberg, it runs one of the first underground railways with open platforms and combined with man operated railways. It needs a lot of safety electronics and I know some guys who were responsible for certification after install. (Yeah, I am somehow from the business.) Don't try to compare closed tracks to open tracks. A closed track is more like an elevator.

ProZsolt 6y ago
We have the London DLR
- tialaramex 6y ago
  The Docklands Light Railway is both grade-separated (which I guess is what your parent was getting at with "closed"? hard to tell) and only GoA (Grade of Automation) 3. There are GoA 4 systems in use in the world. The difference is that every DLR train has a trained operator onboard whereas in a GoA 4 system the nearest employees are in some distant operations centre, watching only via a CCTV connection. GoA 4 trains are entirely autonomous, if one were one day to somehow break down so badly as to be inoperable a separate team would need to go rescue it and meanwhile other trains would simply stop at a station and allow their passengers to disembark.
  - ProZsolt 6y ago
    He compare "closed" to elevators, so I thought that "open" meant no junctions, but you can be also right. Usually there is no operator onboard. But is still GoA 3 because emergency situations are handled by operators from a control room.
    - tialaramex 6y ago
      There is always a trained operator on the DLR. Look around, you will see there is a person wearing a uniform who is perhaps helping tourists figure out where they need to change trains, or assisting a woman struggling with shopping and a push chair. These are TfL employees trained to drive the train, even though it's autonomous. Before the train leaves, even under normal autonomous operation, this person in the uniform activates a "close doors" control and this is the only reason a DLR train will close its doors. When the doors are closed and the way ahead is clear the train will drive itself to the next station, and open the doors, the cycle repeats. The person wearing the uniform is trained to safely operate a train. Any time they're on first shift they actually sit at the front (usually occupied by excited children) and unlock the onboard controls to literally drive the train for route verification purposes. Autonomous trains aren't looking, and tools or equipment may be left on the track by work gangs (despite a "count it out, count it in" procedure) so the first trip of the day is always done manually. You can't drive a DLR train from the control room.
cogman10 6y ago
What are the main difficulties around an open system vs a closed one? To my novice eye they look like they should be fairly comparable.
- jacobr1 6y ago
  Runs on my laptop vs runs in production
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  A semi truck breaks down in a position fouling the tracks. A drunk passes out on the tracks. A freight car isn't securely tied down on a siding and rolls out onto the tracks. Et cetera. For an open system, you have to be able to respond to arbitrary visual input. For a closed system, there shouldn't be random stuff on the right of way.
  - flukus 6y ago
    And that we don't have AI that can handle these relatively easy scenarios is soft proof that we are nowhere near the hard scenarios of fully antonymous driving.
  - taneq 6y ago
    For most train situations, isn’t it impossible to stop once you’re in visual range anyway?
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      Depends on where you are. Some places are flat enough that you can see several miles. A freight train can stop in two miles, more or less. You're not going to see the drunk on the track in that range, but you might see the semi or the freight car.
    - joshribakoff 6y ago
      Think outside the box, the camera could be mounted at the intersection instead of on the train. I'd presume whoever is certifying this stuff also ensures if the gate isn't verified to block traffic, the train stops before the intersection

ProZsolt 6y ago

We have the London DLR

tialaramex 6y ago
The Docklands Light Railway is both grade-separated (which I guess is what your parent was getting at with "closed"? hard to tell) and only GoA (Grade of Automation) 3. There are GoA 4 systems in use in the world. The difference is that every DLR train has a trained operator onboard whereas in a GoA 4 system the nearest employees are in some distant operations centre, watching only via a CCTV connection. GoA 4 trains are entirely autonomous, if one were one day to somehow break down so badly as to be inoperable a separate team would need to go rescue it and meanwhile other trains would simply stop at a station and allow their passengers to disembark.
- ProZsolt 6y ago
  He compare "closed" to elevators, so I thought that "open" meant no junctions, but you can be also right. Usually there is no operator onboard. But is still GoA 3 because emergency situations are handled by operators from a control room.
  - tialaramex 6y ago
    There is always a trained operator on the DLR. Look around, you will see there is a person wearing a uniform who is perhaps helping tourists figure out where they need to change trains, or assisting a woman struggling with shopping and a push chair. These are TfL employees trained to drive the train, even though it's autonomous. Before the train leaves, even under normal autonomous operation, this person in the uniform activates a "close doors" control and this is the only reason a DLR train will close its doors. When the doors are closed and the way ahead is clear the train will drive itself to the next station, and open the doors, the cycle repeats. The person wearing the uniform is trained to safely operate a train. Any time they're on first shift they actually sit at the front (usually occupied by excited children) and unlock the onboard controls to literally drive the train for route verification purposes. Autonomous trains aren't looking, and tools or equipment may be left on the track by work gangs (despite a "count it out, count it in" procedure) so the first trip of the day is always done manually. You can't drive a DLR train from the control room.

cogman10 6y ago

What are the main difficulties around an open system vs a closed one? To my novice eye they look like they should be fairly comparable.

jacobr1 6y ago
Runs on my laptop vs runs in production
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
A semi truck breaks down in a position fouling the tracks. A drunk passes out on the tracks. A freight car isn't securely tied down on a siding and rolls out onto the tracks. Et cetera. For an open system, you have to be able to respond to arbitrary visual input. For a closed system, there shouldn't be random stuff on the right of way.
- flukus 6y ago
  And that we don't have AI that can handle these relatively easy scenarios is soft proof that we are nowhere near the hard scenarios of fully antonymous driving.
- taneq 6y ago
  For most train situations, isn’t it impossible to stop once you’re in visual range anyway?
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Depends on where you are. Some places are flat enough that you can see several miles. A freight train can stop in two miles, more or less. You're not going to see the drunk on the track in that range, but you might see the semi or the freight car.
  - joshribakoff 6y ago
    Think outside the box, the camera could be mounted at the intersection instead of on the train. I'd presume whoever is certifying this stuff also ensures if the gate isn't verified to block traffic, the train stops before the intersection