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> we will see automated railways The future is now: there are automated rail lines in a numbers of cities around the world. Some are relatively old, too. The

> we will see automated railways The future is now: there are automated rail lines in a numbers of cities around the world. Some are relatively old, too. The JFK AirTrain is one such example.

PinguTS 6y ago
Most of the automated railways operate on closed tracks. Many of those even on closed platforms. Here in Germany, my hometown Nuremberg, it runs one of the first underground railways with open platforms and combined with man operated railways. It needs a lot of safety electronics and I know some guys who were responsible for certification after install. (Yeah, I am somehow from the business.) Don't try to compare closed tracks to open tracks. A closed track is more like an elevator.
- ProZsolt 6y ago
  We have the London DLR
  - tialaramex 6y ago
    The Docklands Light Railway is both grade-separated (which I guess is what your parent was getting at with "closed"? hard to tell) and only GoA (Grade of Automation) 3. There are GoA 4 systems in use in the world. The difference is that every DLR train has a trained operator onboard whereas in a GoA 4 system the nearest employees are in some distant operations centre, watching only via a CCTV connection. GoA 4 trains are entirely autonomous, if one were one day to somehow break down so badly as to be inoperable a separate team would need to go rescue it and meanwhile other trains would simply stop at a station and allow their passengers to disembark.
    - ProZsolt 6y ago
      He compare "closed" to elevators, so I thought that "open" meant no junctions, but you can be also right. Usually there is no operator onboard. But is still GoA 3 because emergency situations are handled by operators from a control room.
      - tialaramex 6y ago
        There is always a trained operator on the DLR. Look around, you will see there is a person wearing a uniform who is perhaps helping tourists figure out where they need to change trains, or assisting a woman struggling with shopping and a push chair. These are TfL employees trained to drive the train, even though it's autonomous. Before the train leaves, even under normal autonomous operation, this person in the uniform activates a "close doors" control and this is the only reason a DLR train will close its doors. When the doors are closed and the way ahead is clear the train will drive itself to the next station, and open the doors, the cycle repeats. The person wearing the uniform is trained to safely operate a train. Any time they're on first shift they actually sit at the front (usually occupied by excited children) and unlock the onboard controls to literally drive the train for route verification purposes. Autonomous trains aren't looking, and tools or equipment may be left on the track by work gangs (despite a "count it out, count it in" procedure) so the first trip of the day is always done manually. You can't drive a DLR train from the control room.
- cogman10 6y ago
  What are the main difficulties around an open system vs a closed one? To my novice eye they look like they should be fairly comparable.
  - jacobr1 6y ago
    Runs on my laptop vs runs in production
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    A semi truck breaks down in a position fouling the tracks. A drunk passes out on the tracks. A freight car isn't securely tied down on a siding and rolls out onto the tracks. Et cetera. For an open system, you have to be able to respond to arbitrary visual input. For a closed system, there shouldn't be random stuff on the right of way.
    - flukus 6y ago
      And that we don't have AI that can handle these relatively easy scenarios is soft proof that we are nowhere near the hard scenarios of fully antonymous driving.
    - taneq 6y ago
      For most train situations, isn’t it impossible to stop once you’re in visual range anyway?
      - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
        Depends on where you are. Some places are flat enough that you can see several miles. A freight train can stop in two miles, more or less. You're not going to see the drunk on the track in that range, but you might see the semi or the freight car.
      - joshribakoff 6y ago
        Think outside the box, the camera could be mounted at the intersection instead of on the train. I'd presume whoever is certifying this stuff also ensures if the gate isn't verified to block traffic, the train stops before the intersection
Simulacra 6y ago
What are the drawbacks to automated rail? I had to look this up and was very surprised rail is not automated more in America. Is it safety?
- stingrae 6y ago
  In BART, in the bay area, I believe it is largely because of Unions.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Well, BART had one crash because the automated control system mis-read a command and accelerated when it should have been braking. Debuggable? Perhaps. But after that, it's a tough sell to say that there shouldn't be a human in the cab to say "Wait a minute, that's not right."
- Avicebron 6y ago
  Unfortunately there has been a prolonged campaign(ennui?) against rail in the US. I imagine lack of funding for innovation in legacy rail systems is to blame here.
  - causalmodels 6y ago
    Rail cannot get adequate funding for even basic maintenance and upkeep and upgrades, let alone modernization, because of widespread corruption among government officials and public sector workers. I'm sure public perception plays some role but it is not the root cause for our current situation.
- aahhahahaaa 6y ago
  A mix of politics, bureaucracy, and cost. For example, there was a fatal derailment back in 2017 in the US, and an automated safety system that may have prevented it was delayed. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42421417 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42421417 From the wikipedia article on Positive Train Control (PTC): >In December 2010, the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) reported that Amtrak and the major Class I railroads have taken steps to install PTC systems under the law, but commuter rail operators were not on track for the 2015 deadline.[14] As of June 2015, only seven commuter systems (29 percent of those represented by APTA) were expecting to make the deadline. Several factors have delayed implementation, including the need to obtain funding (which was not provided by Congress); the time it has taken to design, test, make interoperable, and manufacture the technology; and the need to obtain radio spectrum along the entire rail network, which involves FCC permission and in some cases negotiating with an existing owner for purchase or lease.[15] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_train_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_train_control So needless to say... the technology likely exists today, but implementing anything significant to existing infrastructure in the US is a monumental feat. The above example is just a safety system, but once you start removing employees you also start running up against labor unions... which is yet another layer holding things back.
plumeria 6y ago
The metros in Lausanne, Switzerland and in Copenhagen, Denmark are automated.
- gspr 6y ago
  Nitpicl: Only one of Lausanne's two metro lines is automated; the m1 is way too exposed to human interaction with the track area for that to be risked as it's currently laid out. Also, Line 14 on the Paris metro (heavy use) has been automated since the 90s.
sandworm101 6y ago
But we haven't seen automated freight trains. A light rail train hauling commuters along a dedicated bespoke elevated rail line (Vancouver's skytrain, Disney World etc) is one thing, a hundred cars full of iron ore descending a hill behind a preschool is another.
- joosters 6y ago
  The preschool is hiding behind the hill on the railway line? I wish they'd stop building these schools on the train tracks, it's so irresponsible.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  I believe that Australia has an automated freight line. The original intent of the Black Mesa & Lake Powell (hauling coal to a power plant) was for it to be fully automated, but I don't know if it ever ran without a human in the cab.
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    >> has an automated freight line. I didn't know about that, but is it a "freight line" or a "freight train"? If it is the former, a dedicated line used only by the automated train, then it isn't all that removed from disneyworld: a single-use train on a dedicated line. And Australia is notoriously flat. I'm from the west coast, where driving a heavy train through the mountains is serious business, but disasters can happen anywhere. The latest epic disaster in Canada was caused by a train that was unmanned at the time. It was parked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A9gantic_rail_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A9gantic_rail_disaste...
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      Yes, I've been to Tehachapi, Cajon, and Donner Passes. And Cima Hill, and Ash Hill, and Goffs. I know what mountain railroading out west can be. Maybe the gnarliest scenario I know of out there is: There's a major brush fire on Cajon. Like, 20-foot-high wall of flame. Is it far enough away for you to try to get the train past it? (With maybe 4000 gallons of diesel fuel under each locomotive, and maybe liquefied petroleum gas tank cars in the consist?) Or do you park the train, and hope the fire doesn't come to you? I mean, I guess an AI can make that decision without being influenced by concern for its own survival. But I suspect that most train-driving AIs don't have a really good set of training data for this scenario...

> we will see automated railways The future is now: there are automated rail lines in a numbers of cities around the world. Some are relatively old, too. The JFK AirTrain is one such example.

PinguTS 6y ago

Most of the automated railways operate on closed tracks. Many of those even on closed platforms. Here in Germany, my hometown Nuremberg, it runs one of the first underground railways with open platforms and combined with man operated railways. It needs a lot of safety electronics and I know some guys who were responsible for certification after install. (Yeah, I am somehow from the business.) Don't try to compare closed tracks to open tracks. A closed track is more like an elevator.

ProZsolt 6y ago
We have the London DLR
- tialaramex 6y ago
  The Docklands Light Railway is both grade-separated (which I guess is what your parent was getting at with "closed"? hard to tell) and only GoA (Grade of Automation) 3. There are GoA 4 systems in use in the world. The difference is that every DLR train has a trained operator onboard whereas in a GoA 4 system the nearest employees are in some distant operations centre, watching only via a CCTV connection. GoA 4 trains are entirely autonomous, if one were one day to somehow break down so badly as to be inoperable a separate team would need to go rescue it and meanwhile other trains would simply stop at a station and allow their passengers to disembark.
  - ProZsolt 6y ago
    He compare "closed" to elevators, so I thought that "open" meant no junctions, but you can be also right. Usually there is no operator onboard. But is still GoA 3 because emergency situations are handled by operators from a control room.
    - tialaramex 6y ago
      There is always a trained operator on the DLR. Look around, you will see there is a person wearing a uniform who is perhaps helping tourists figure out where they need to change trains, or assisting a woman struggling with shopping and a push chair. These are TfL employees trained to drive the train, even though it's autonomous. Before the train leaves, even under normal autonomous operation, this person in the uniform activates a "close doors" control and this is the only reason a DLR train will close its doors. When the doors are closed and the way ahead is clear the train will drive itself to the next station, and open the doors, the cycle repeats. The person wearing the uniform is trained to safely operate a train. Any time they're on first shift they actually sit at the front (usually occupied by excited children) and unlock the onboard controls to literally drive the train for route verification purposes. Autonomous trains aren't looking, and tools or equipment may be left on the track by work gangs (despite a "count it out, count it in" procedure) so the first trip of the day is always done manually. You can't drive a DLR train from the control room.
cogman10 6y ago
What are the main difficulties around an open system vs a closed one? To my novice eye they look like they should be fairly comparable.
- jacobr1 6y ago
  Runs on my laptop vs runs in production
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  A semi truck breaks down in a position fouling the tracks. A drunk passes out on the tracks. A freight car isn't securely tied down on a siding and rolls out onto the tracks. Et cetera. For an open system, you have to be able to respond to arbitrary visual input. For a closed system, there shouldn't be random stuff on the right of way.
  - flukus 6y ago
    And that we don't have AI that can handle these relatively easy scenarios is soft proof that we are nowhere near the hard scenarios of fully antonymous driving.
  - taneq 6y ago
    For most train situations, isn’t it impossible to stop once you’re in visual range anyway?
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      Depends on where you are. Some places are flat enough that you can see several miles. A freight train can stop in two miles, more or less. You're not going to see the drunk on the track in that range, but you might see the semi or the freight car.
    - joshribakoff 6y ago
      Think outside the box, the camera could be mounted at the intersection instead of on the train. I'd presume whoever is certifying this stuff also ensures if the gate isn't verified to block traffic, the train stops before the intersection

Simulacra 6y ago

What are the drawbacks to automated rail? I had to look this up and was very surprised rail is not automated more in America. Is it safety?

stingrae 6y ago
In BART, in the bay area, I believe it is largely because of Unions.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Well, BART had one crash because the automated control system mis-read a command and accelerated when it should have been braking. Debuggable? Perhaps. But after that, it's a tough sell to say that there shouldn't be a human in the cab to say "Wait a minute, that's not right."
Avicebron 6y ago
Unfortunately there has been a prolonged campaign(ennui?) against rail in the US. I imagine lack of funding for innovation in legacy rail systems is to blame here.
- causalmodels 6y ago
  Rail cannot get adequate funding for even basic maintenance and upkeep and upgrades, let alone modernization, because of widespread corruption among government officials and public sector workers. I'm sure public perception plays some role but it is not the root cause for our current situation.
aahhahahaaa 6y ago
A mix of politics, bureaucracy, and cost. For example, there was a fatal derailment back in 2017 in the US, and an automated safety system that may have prevented it was delayed. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42421417 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42421417 From the wikipedia article on Positive Train Control (PTC): >In December 2010, the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) reported that Amtrak and the major Class I railroads have taken steps to install PTC systems under the law, but commuter rail operators were not on track for the 2015 deadline.[14] As of June 2015, only seven commuter systems (29 percent of those represented by APTA) were expecting to make the deadline. Several factors have delayed implementation, including the need to obtain funding (which was not provided by Congress); the time it has taken to design, test, make interoperable, and manufacture the technology; and the need to obtain radio spectrum along the entire rail network, which involves FCC permission and in some cases negotiating with an existing owner for purchase or lease.[15] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_train_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_train_control So needless to say... the technology likely exists today, but implementing anything significant to existing infrastructure in the US is a monumental feat. The above example is just a safety system, but once you start removing employees you also start running up against labor unions... which is yet another layer holding things back.

plumeria 6y ago

The metros in Lausanne, Switzerland and in Copenhagen, Denmark are automated.

gspr 6y ago
Nitpicl: Only one of Lausanne's two metro lines is automated; the m1 is way too exposed to human interaction with the track area for that to be risked as it's currently laid out. Also, Line 14 on the Paris metro (heavy use) has been automated since the 90s.

sandworm101 6y ago

But we haven't seen automated freight trains. A light rail train hauling commuters along a dedicated bespoke elevated rail line (Vancouver's skytrain, Disney World etc) is one thing, a hundred cars full of iron ore descending a hill behind a preschool is another.

joosters 6y ago
The preschool is hiding behind the hill on the railway line? I wish they'd stop building these schools on the train tracks, it's so irresponsible.
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
I believe that Australia has an automated freight line. The original intent of the Black Mesa & Lake Powell (hauling coal to a power plant) was for it to be fully automated, but I don't know if it ever ran without a human in the cab.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  >> has an automated freight line. I didn't know about that, but is it a "freight line" or a "freight train"? If it is the former, a dedicated line used only by the automated train, then it isn't all that removed from disneyworld: a single-use train on a dedicated line. And Australia is notoriously flat. I'm from the west coast, where driving a heavy train through the mountains is serious business, but disasters can happen anywhere. The latest epic disaster in Canada was caused by a train that was unmanned at the time. It was parked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A9gantic_rail_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A9gantic_rail_disaste...
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Yes, I've been to Tehachapi, Cajon, and Donner Passes. And Cima Hill, and Ash Hill, and Goffs. I know what mountain railroading out west can be. Maybe the gnarliest scenario I know of out there is: There's a major brush fire on Cajon. Like, 20-foot-high wall of flame. Is it far enough away for you to try to get the train past it? (With maybe 4000 gallons of diesel fuel under each locomotive, and maybe liquefied petroleum gas tank cars in the consist?) Or do you park the train, and hope the fire doesn't come to you? I mean, I guess an AI can make that decision without being influenced by concern for its own survival. But I suspect that most train-driving AIs don't have a really good set of training data for this scenario...