5 ms·

I’m all for renewables but this is an unacceptable compromise. Seriously, this isn’t how large business can operate.

pjc50 6y ago
Really it's the wrong example. The best way to distribute "demand response" is in systems which have a big thermal mass attached to them. You can turn an industrial freezer off for half an hour without anyone noticing. An 80/20 compromise where most of the power is from renewables and the rest made up by CCGT seems very much within reach for the UK.
- philipkglass 6y ago
  And finally, ideally, the last 20% shifts to gas turbines fueled with clean hydrogen. The UK has about 1000 TWh of hydrogen storage potential in onshore salt deposits that could be solution-mined to make underground hydrogen storage caverns. "Technical potential of salt caverns for hydrogen storage in Europe" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360319919347299 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03603... Siemens is providing a gas turbine generator that will run on 100% renewable hydrogen as part of the HYFLEXPOWER demonstrator project: https://press.siemens.com/global/en/pressrelease/hyflexpower-worlds-first-integrated-power-x-power-hydrogen-gas-turbine-demonstrator https://press.siemens.com/global/en/pressrelease/hyflexpower... Siemens and General Electric both have roadmaps for gas turbines running on pure hydrogen: "Siemens’ Roadmap to 100% Hydrogen Gas Turbines" https://www.powermag.com/siemens-roadmap-to-100-hydrogen-gas-turbines/ https://www.powermag.com/siemens-roadmap-to-100-hydrogen-gas... GE Power "Hydrogen fueled gas turbines" https://www.ge.com/power/gas/fuel-capability/hydrogen-fueled-gas-turbines https://www.ge.com/power/gas/fuel-capability/hydrogen-fueled... Most current turbine models are already capable of running on a methane-hydrogen blend. I like to highlight these projects because people sometimes mistakenly think that seasonal-scale storage with hydrogen also requires breakthroughs in scaling fuel cell technology. Evolutionary developments in gas turbine technology will also make it practical.
  - cbmuser 6y ago
    The UK has opted for nuclear. They are building and planning in Bradwell, Hinkley Point and Sizewell.
    - philipkglass 6y ago
      Given the high costs of Hinkley Point C, I suspect that the new reactors planned for Sizewell and Bradwell may not actually be built. "Hinkley Point C nuclear plant to run £2.9bn over budget" https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49823305 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49823305 French power company EDF said the new nuclear plant it is building at Hinkley Point C will cost up to £2.9bn more than thought. It raised its estimate for the project, in Somerset, to between £21.5bn and £22.5bn, blaming "challenging ground conditions". It also said the risk of the project being 15 months late had risen. ... These cost overruns will not hit UK consumers. However, a new way of paying for further nuclear stations, such as Sizewell, is being considered. Under this new model, consumers would see costs of construction added to their bills as the project went along. It means that customers could be exposed to cost overruns. That is why today's announcement is important and why EDF will find it harder to make the argument for building Sizewell.
perfunctory 6y ago
> this isn’t how large business can operate Why not?
- extrapickles 6y ago
  The capital costs of something like a automobile factory ($500 mil+) pretty much force you to run 24/7. Also, automobiles are labor intensive to produce, so idling the workforce alone would cost more than building more power. Something low capital, low labor and high energy like steel recycling has already shifted to operate when electricity is cheap.
  - perfunctory 6y ago
    In the current economic environment, yes. But suppose we transitioned into a new economic reality. Imagine that net-zero-carbon global economy is a hard requirement. Imposed by god or something. I guess adjustable demand would be a feasible option then.
    - extrapickles 6y ago
      Even then it might not change the vehicle factory much, as it moves from a high $ capital cost, to a high environmental capital cost that you will want to spread over as many vehicles as possible. The easiest thing to reduce capital costs would be to stop painting vehicles and switch to stainless steel skins as paint is one of the single largest capital expenses in building a car. Downstream suppliers of the plant might change, mainly ones that have a high energy, low capital(either $ or environmental) process.
    - cbmuser 6y ago
      Socialism doesn't work. It has been proven multiple times.

Really it's the wrong example. The best way to distribute "demand response" is in systems which have a big thermal mass attached to them. You can turn an industrial freezer off for half an hour without anyone noticing. An 80/20 compromise where most of the power is from renewables and the rest made up by CCGT seems very much within reach for the UK.

philipkglass 6y ago
And finally, ideally, the last 20% shifts to gas turbines fueled with clean hydrogen. The UK has about 1000 TWh of hydrogen storage potential in onshore salt deposits that could be solution-mined to make underground hydrogen storage caverns. "Technical potential of salt caverns for hydrogen storage in Europe" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360319919347299 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03603... Siemens is providing a gas turbine generator that will run on 100% renewable hydrogen as part of the HYFLEXPOWER demonstrator project: https://press.siemens.com/global/en/pressrelease/hyflexpower-worlds-first-integrated-power-x-power-hydrogen-gas-turbine-demonstrator https://press.siemens.com/global/en/pressrelease/hyflexpower... Siemens and General Electric both have roadmaps for gas turbines running on pure hydrogen: "Siemens’ Roadmap to 100% Hydrogen Gas Turbines" https://www.powermag.com/siemens-roadmap-to-100-hydrogen-gas-turbines/ https://www.powermag.com/siemens-roadmap-to-100-hydrogen-gas... GE Power "Hydrogen fueled gas turbines" https://www.ge.com/power/gas/fuel-capability/hydrogen-fueled-gas-turbines https://www.ge.com/power/gas/fuel-capability/hydrogen-fueled... Most current turbine models are already capable of running on a methane-hydrogen blend. I like to highlight these projects because people sometimes mistakenly think that seasonal-scale storage with hydrogen also requires breakthroughs in scaling fuel cell technology. Evolutionary developments in gas turbine technology will also make it practical.
- cbmuser 6y ago
  The UK has opted for nuclear. They are building and planning in Bradwell, Hinkley Point and Sizewell.
  - philipkglass 6y ago
    Given the high costs of Hinkley Point C, I suspect that the new reactors planned for Sizewell and Bradwell may not actually be built. "Hinkley Point C nuclear plant to run £2.9bn over budget" https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49823305 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49823305 French power company EDF said the new nuclear plant it is building at Hinkley Point C will cost up to £2.9bn more than thought. It raised its estimate for the project, in Somerset, to between £21.5bn and £22.5bn, blaming "challenging ground conditions". It also said the risk of the project being 15 months late had risen. ... These cost overruns will not hit UK consumers. However, a new way of paying for further nuclear stations, such as Sizewell, is being considered. Under this new model, consumers would see costs of construction added to their bills as the project went along. It means that customers could be exposed to cost overruns. That is why today's announcement is important and why EDF will find it harder to make the argument for building Sizewell.

perfunctory 6y ago

> this isn’t how large business can operate Why not?

extrapickles 6y ago
The capital costs of something like a automobile factory ($500 mil+) pretty much force you to run 24/7. Also, automobiles are labor intensive to produce, so idling the workforce alone would cost more than building more power. Something low capital, low labor and high energy like steel recycling has already shifted to operate when electricity is cheap.
- perfunctory 6y ago
  In the current economic environment, yes. But suppose we transitioned into a new economic reality. Imagine that net-zero-carbon global economy is a hard requirement. Imposed by god or something. I guess adjustable demand would be a feasible option then.
  - extrapickles 6y ago
    Even then it might not change the vehicle factory much, as it moves from a high $ capital cost, to a high environmental capital cost that you will want to spread over as many vehicles as possible. The easiest thing to reduce capital costs would be to stop painting vehicles and switch to stainless steel skins as paint is one of the single largest capital expenses in building a car. Downstream suppliers of the plant might change, mainly ones that have a high energy, low capital(either $ or environmental) process.
  - cbmuser 6y ago
    Socialism doesn't work. It has been proven multiple times.