5 ms·

I think you didn't understand the grandparent poster's point. They're arguing, basically, that only 1% of research is deliberate fraud, but 80% is simply useles

I think you didn't understand the grandparent poster's point. They're arguing, basically, that only 1% of research is deliberate fraud, but 80% is simply useless garbage. The reasons for the garbage are varied, but any way you slice it, it's worthless. So why worry so much about the maliciously useless when there's so much incompetent uselessness? That matches my experience back when I was an active researcher. Intentional fraud is rare (and highly damaging). Garbage research and garbage papers are everywhere. And even most of the non-garbage research is useless! The core differentiator there is that we just don't know which things will be useful without hindsight. But we can identify plenty of things that were not helpful to anyone and we knew it... yet we still funded those programs. I think we're mostly in agreement that the size of the problem is vast, even if we might disagree on labelling.

moralestapia 6y ago
Perhaps I was in an extremely corrupt environment (which eventually made me leave), but I would put the "intentional fraud" rate as high as 30% or so. I pointed out one of such instances once and that was the beginning of the end for me in that place. More: My field was Biology. No one double checks anyone or anything. A measurement comes back and you can just pretty much ignore it, in the end you just write whatever you need for your thesis to hold (I mean not me, but that's pretty much everybody's dirty secret). In the rare case that someone actually wants to check it out (1 in 1,000), you can just say that the "original data was lost". Sometimes the only thing you can trace back is some sort of written journal, in which anybody could write anything and that doesn't make it true/false. Not long ago, there was a group of scientists that went on to try to replicate some landmark results on cancer research (I'll update with a good reference if I find it) and found out that only a very low number of them matched their observations. Some of those were not even close ... like, waaaay outside a very generous experimental margin of error.
- exmadscientist 6y ago
  Ouch. Things certainly do vary from field to field and I was in one of the better ones (particle physics), so I believe you. Given how hard an environment it is even in the honest research groups, that must have been awful.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  > I pointed out one of such instances once and that was the beginning of the end for me in that place. How does that occur? Did they invent some reason you couldn't remain? Were you intending to remain anonymous when reported it? Lastly, were there consequences for the fraudsters?
  - moralestapia 6y ago
    Power games. In my specific scenario, she said I was underperforming and didn't want me anymore as her student, there's nothing much one could do after that. Of course I tried to defend my stance, even provided solid evidence of her wrongdoings and overall attitude towards me and other students. In the end it was "just better if you just leave". >Were there consequences for the fraudsters? Zero.

moralestapia 6y ago

Perhaps I was in an extremely corrupt environment (which eventually made me leave), but I would put the "intentional fraud" rate as high as 30% or so. I pointed out one of such instances once and that was the beginning of the end for me in that place. More: My field was Biology. No one double checks anyone or anything. A measurement comes back and you can just pretty much ignore it, in the end you just write whatever you need for your thesis to hold (I mean not me, but that's pretty much everybody's dirty secret). In the rare case that someone actually wants to check it out (1 in 1,000), you can just say that the "original data was lost". Sometimes the only thing you can trace back is some sort of written journal, in which anybody could write anything and that doesn't make it true/false. Not long ago, there was a group of scientists that went on to try to replicate some landmark results on cancer research (I'll update with a good reference if I find it) and found out that only a very low number of them matched their observations. Some of those were not even close ... like, waaaay outside a very generous experimental margin of error.

exmadscientist 6y ago
Ouch. Things certainly do vary from field to field and I was in one of the better ones (particle physics), so I believe you. Given how hard an environment it is even in the honest research groups, that must have been awful.
MaxBarraclough 6y ago
> I pointed out one of such instances once and that was the beginning of the end for me in that place. How does that occur? Did they invent some reason you couldn't remain? Were you intending to remain anonymous when reported it? Lastly, were there consequences for the fraudsters?
- moralestapia 6y ago
  Power games. In my specific scenario, she said I was underperforming and didn't want me anymore as her student, there's nothing much one could do after that. Of course I tried to defend my stance, even provided solid evidence of her wrongdoings and overall attitude towards me and other students. In the end it was "just better if you just leave". >Were there consequences for the fraudsters? Zero.