8 ms·

There is a whole dimension missing from this article, which is, "WFH has a huge difference in result depending on who you are, when you are (in your career), an

There is a whole dimension missing from this article, which is, "WFH has a huge difference in result depending on who you are, when you are (in your career), and where you are in the company". -- For the budding young developer who can't wait to show ideas to teammates and demonstrate being a go-getter by asking random questions and finding unaddressed issues to innovate on, WFH might be terrible. You're going to schedule time to fortuitously run into the senior person who takes an interest in your idea? -- For the working parent whose productivity has been slashed by 50% and stress has gone up by 50% due to parenting obligations, WFH might be terrible. -- For the middle manager who can coast along and not need to move greatly in his/her career, WFH might be great. -- For the developer who works by tickets on very concrete things and this is nothing new, WFH might be great. -- For the small company CEO who relies on force of personality and everyone in the same room urgently working to get something done, WFH might be terrible. There's a huge variability in what WFH means, depending on what you want from the situation.

jcims 6y ago
For the person 20 years deep into their career who eats lunch at their desk every day rather than going with coworkers, WFH might be awesome! Well said btw. I don’t know that I’ve seen anyone even attempt a comprehensive assessment of how work from home helps or hurts, just these narrow appeals to those in a similar situation.
- james_s_tayler 6y ago
  I eat lunch at my desk and still prefer the office. It's all just different strokes.
  - charwalker 6y ago
    I've saved money but do miss the various options close to work. Taking an hour to jump offsite with music or a coworker for lunch was great. Today's lunch break is a shower and quick lunch. Very exciting.
paulryanrogers 6y ago
If a person has parenting obligations than how is WFO better than WFH? Or are we talking about more than just WFH, such as a pandemic that reduces childcare options?
- brightball 6y ago
  People learn the hard way that kids in school/daycare are very different than kids at home. Even at an age when they can largely fend for themselves there’s a lot of difficulties that come from trying to focus on work while kids are around.
  - paulryanrogers 6y ago
    Then we're not comparing only WFH but rather pandemic-from-home. I've dropped off kids at daycare and worked from home. It was much quicker than daycare+commute to office.
- dx87 6y ago
  If only one parent is working they might get roped into helping out the parent who normally stays at home. At least that's how co-workers in that situation have described it to me; small children don't understand why daddy is home but can't play with them, plus you feel guilty not helping your spouse if they're having a rough day.
  - war1025 6y ago
    > small children don't understand why daddy is home but can't play with them This is exactly correct. My office did work from home Tuesdays / Thursdays even before the pandemic. My wife stays home with our three kids. I tried it precisely once. My kids were grumpy, my wife was grumpier. There is an unspoken expectation that if you are present you should be helping / interacting. I'm sure we could have worked it out, but it wasn't worth the effort. Having the entire office (5 people, so nothing big) to myself twice a week was pretty nice though. And it set a great precedent so that I've been the only person going into the office the past four months.
mancerayder 6y ago
I think laying out the various dimensions like this is the right approach. There are also factors such as, what about cracking jokes or otherwise having pleasant non work conversations at work. Zoom doesn't cut it. Slack surely not. Next, the outsourcability of our work may not be ideal for those in high rent, expensive real estate areas. We'll be competing with the cheap, or will need to move.
- tuesdayrain 6y ago
  Oh yeah, nothing like being forced to commute for several hours every week so I can hear my coworkers' jokes.
  - missedthecue 6y ago
    I don't think that was his point. His point is that it's hard to build relationships when no one ever sees each other. Relationships are extremely important in the business setting and it's something the Aspergers inclined tech crowd has a little bit of a difficult time grasping.
    - Joof 6y ago
      Relationships are really important outside the business setting too. Often much more important. Something that a lot of people in the business setting don't seem to understand. My work friends are just that... work friends. I have to hide large swaths of my personal life from them and they don't usually stick around outside work. Work relationships suck.
      - abalashov 6y ago
        Sure. OTOH, you don’t have to be either an Aspie or a Business A-Player Career Superhero to give a pragmatic nod to the fact that work is where many people, perhaps most, spend their waking hours. It’s only natural and eminently human that for a lot of them, that’s where their friendships and relationships will form and play out. In my opinion, it’s all the more so if they live in one of the many nondescript suburban places of which Middle America comprises. Having little to come home to or go out to, with our bankrupt concept of civic space and the public realm, it’s all the more likely many of us will unconsciously look to work as the locus of social possibility. It’s not because we want to, it’s just the shape of the situation.
tempestn 6y ago
I'd say it depends a lot on the company and team. We've been all-remote for 10 years now, and I'm certainly biased, but I don't think evidence suggests it's been less than good for young, ambitious members of the team. Our lead front-end developer had no previous paid experience as a developer, but stood out in our interview process (which is based on a series of short, real-work-like assignments done asynchronously), and has continually impressed since then. If leadership is competent, I don't think it's necessary to have fortuitous in-person run-ins and such to demonstrate one's drive and ability.
- anon9001 6y ago
  This is so true. Those "fortuitous in-person run-ins" are also highly correlated with looking the part and having the same hobbies and friends as well-connected people. I think there's a chance we're going to see all-remote employees be subconsciously judged on things like the quality of their lighting, audio, background, mute etiquette, etc. IMO that's a lot better than the current approach of judging based on similar appearance, hobbies, lunch schedules, golf club memberships, etc. Being all-remote is a wonderful equalizer.
  - anon98356 6y ago
    How is subconsciously judging based on lighting, audio etc. any better than whether or not you play golf? The only spot for me to put my desk means that, in video conferences I look like an anonymous whistle blower from a news report. How is being subconsciously ignored because of how my apartment is laid out any better than being ignored because I prefer to swim than play golf? Based on your examples, all-remote isn't an equalizer, it's changing the rules by which you are judged.
    - agustif 6y ago
      A good lamp for your desk might be cheaper than that golf club membership at least!
      - 6y ago
endtime 6y ago
Other things being equal, WFH is a huge boon for short employees - you can't see height over VC.
- LordDragonfang 6y ago
  I read VC as venture capital (this is a ycombinator domain) and was very confused as to what you meant for a moment.
  - agustif 6y ago
    I'm just guessing, but by the context of it it's videoconference, not Venture Capital.
  - endtime 6y ago
    Sorry for the ambiguity, I can't edit the original comment anymore but I meant "video chat" or "video conference".
dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
> -- For the small company CEO who relies on force of personality and everyone in the same room urgently working to get something done, WFH might be terrible. Forgive me but the way you formulated it doesn't correspond to reality. What is really happening is that the 'small company CEO' suddenly has an idea and wants everyone to work on something but at the same time expect everyone to get their normal work done. This basically means people have to work overtime, and more often than not this overtime is unpaid. Moreover, instead of clear rules there are "expectations". Having to spell it out, especially in writing, makes it clear that this kind of behavior is abusive. Don't depend on 'personality', just explain to your workers clearly what you expect from them, define priorites, and listen to their feedback.
tarsinge 6y ago
Also missing the mix of both WFH and office presence at a chosen %, which is the best for nearly all categories.
Akronymus 6y ago
For a person who has trouble staying with a task, for example me, WFH would be BAD. I NEED at least some supervision to not stray off my tasks. I am not mentally tough and have poor impulse control. Which would almost certainly get me fired in a WFH environment.
- jobigoud 6y ago
  You have a call with the team every few days where you have to describe what you've done and what you are going to do next. This helps keeping you in check.
speby 6y ago
Definitely agree with these points. You left out some of the more individual ones where personality and preferences come into play. I think that a lot of variability will come down to preferences. Also, it's worth noting that for many people who have not worked from home much (or if at all), they won't really "know" whether or not it's a good setup for themselves until they actually do it for more than a few weeks to start drawing some observations about what works well and what doesn't.
john4532452 6y ago
For middle manager's WFH is terrible. They can't account their time for what they did. For everyone else its great. For parents its great. Parents get to spend commute time with childrens. For developers its just amazing. I can't stress this enough. You get uninterrupted time to design or coding in the zone For hardware startups it might not work, but software its already proven by wordpress, gitlab and many others. Budding engineers can always think before asking senior devs and learn how to ask questions. Most importantly WFH is great to fight against age bias. For any one over 30 this is huge win.
- softawre 6y ago
  > For middle manager's WFH is terrible. They can't account their time for what they did What do you mean, "account their time for what they did"? As a middle manager myself, I am graded on my projects getting done on time. I don't need to fill out some sort of timecard. Do you?
  - john4534243 6y ago
    I think the op was referring to the middle managers who don't code .
thayne 6y ago
For the introvert with misophonia, WFH (or at least a private, quiet workspace) is almost a necessity. Ultimately, I think the best situation is where workers can choose what is best for themselves.

jcims 6y ago

For the person 20 years deep into their career who eats lunch at their desk every day rather than going with coworkers, WFH might be awesome! Well said btw. I don’t know that I’ve seen anyone even attempt a comprehensive assessment of how work from home helps or hurts, just these narrow appeals to those in a similar situation.

james_s_tayler 6y ago
I eat lunch at my desk and still prefer the office. It's all just different strokes.
- charwalker 6y ago
  I've saved money but do miss the various options close to work. Taking an hour to jump offsite with music or a coworker for lunch was great. Today's lunch break is a shower and quick lunch. Very exciting.

paulryanrogers 6y ago

If a person has parenting obligations than how is WFO better than WFH? Or are we talking about more than just WFH, such as a pandemic that reduces childcare options?

brightball 6y ago
People learn the hard way that kids in school/daycare are very different than kids at home. Even at an age when they can largely fend for themselves there’s a lot of difficulties that come from trying to focus on work while kids are around.
- paulryanrogers 6y ago
  Then we're not comparing only WFH but rather pandemic-from-home. I've dropped off kids at daycare and worked from home. It was much quicker than daycare+commute to office.
dx87 6y ago
If only one parent is working they might get roped into helping out the parent who normally stays at home. At least that's how co-workers in that situation have described it to me; small children don't understand why daddy is home but can't play with them, plus you feel guilty not helping your spouse if they're having a rough day.
- war1025 6y ago
  > small children don't understand why daddy is home but can't play with them This is exactly correct. My office did work from home Tuesdays / Thursdays even before the pandemic. My wife stays home with our three kids. I tried it precisely once. My kids were grumpy, my wife was grumpier. There is an unspoken expectation that if you are present you should be helping / interacting. I'm sure we could have worked it out, but it wasn't worth the effort. Having the entire office (5 people, so nothing big) to myself twice a week was pretty nice though. And it set a great precedent so that I've been the only person going into the office the past four months.

mancerayder 6y ago

I think laying out the various dimensions like this is the right approach. There are also factors such as, what about cracking jokes or otherwise having pleasant non work conversations at work. Zoom doesn't cut it. Slack surely not. Next, the outsourcability of our work may not be ideal for those in high rent, expensive real estate areas. We'll be competing with the cheap, or will need to move.

tuesdayrain 6y ago
Oh yeah, nothing like being forced to commute for several hours every week so I can hear my coworkers' jokes.
- missedthecue 6y ago
  I don't think that was his point. His point is that it's hard to build relationships when no one ever sees each other. Relationships are extremely important in the business setting and it's something the Aspergers inclined tech crowd has a little bit of a difficult time grasping.
  - Joof 6y ago
    Relationships are really important outside the business setting too. Often much more important. Something that a lot of people in the business setting don't seem to understand. My work friends are just that... work friends. I have to hide large swaths of my personal life from them and they don't usually stick around outside work. Work relationships suck.
    - abalashov 6y ago
      Sure. OTOH, you don’t have to be either an Aspie or a Business A-Player Career Superhero to give a pragmatic nod to the fact that work is where many people, perhaps most, spend their waking hours. It’s only natural and eminently human that for a lot of them, that’s where their friendships and relationships will form and play out. In my opinion, it’s all the more so if they live in one of the many nondescript suburban places of which Middle America comprises. Having little to come home to or go out to, with our bankrupt concept of civic space and the public realm, it’s all the more likely many of us will unconsciously look to work as the locus of social possibility. It’s not because we want to, it’s just the shape of the situation.

tempestn 6y ago

I'd say it depends a lot on the company and team. We've been all-remote for 10 years now, and I'm certainly biased, but I don't think evidence suggests it's been less than good for young, ambitious members of the team. Our lead front-end developer had no previous paid experience as a developer, but stood out in our interview process (which is based on a series of short, real-work-like assignments done asynchronously), and has continually impressed since then. If leadership is competent, I don't think it's necessary to have fortuitous in-person run-ins and such to demonstrate one's drive and ability.

anon9001 6y ago
This is so true. Those "fortuitous in-person run-ins" are also highly correlated with looking the part and having the same hobbies and friends as well-connected people. I think there's a chance we're going to see all-remote employees be subconsciously judged on things like the quality of their lighting, audio, background, mute etiquette, etc. IMO that's a lot better than the current approach of judging based on similar appearance, hobbies, lunch schedules, golf club memberships, etc. Being all-remote is a wonderful equalizer.
- anon98356 6y ago
  How is subconsciously judging based on lighting, audio etc. any better than whether or not you play golf? The only spot for me to put my desk means that, in video conferences I look like an anonymous whistle blower from a news report. How is being subconsciously ignored because of how my apartment is laid out any better than being ignored because I prefer to swim than play golf? Based on your examples, all-remote isn't an equalizer, it's changing the rules by which you are judged.
  - agustif 6y ago
    A good lamp for your desk might be cheaper than that golf club membership at least!
    - 6y ago

endtime 6y ago

Other things being equal, WFH is a huge boon for short employees - you can't see height over VC.

LordDragonfang 6y ago
I read VC as venture capital (this is a ycombinator domain) and was very confused as to what you meant for a moment.
- agustif 6y ago
  I'm just guessing, but by the context of it it's videoconference, not Venture Capital.
- endtime 6y ago
  Sorry for the ambiguity, I can't edit the original comment anymore but I meant "video chat" or "video conference".

dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago

> -- For the small company CEO who relies on force of personality and everyone in the same room urgently working to get something done, WFH might be terrible. Forgive me but the way you formulated it doesn't correspond to reality. What is really happening is that the 'small company CEO' suddenly has an idea and wants everyone to work on something but at the same time expect everyone to get their normal work done. This basically means people have to work overtime, and more often than not this overtime is unpaid. Moreover, instead of clear rules there are "expectations". Having to spell it out, especially in writing, makes it clear that this kind of behavior is abusive. Don't depend on 'personality', just explain to your workers clearly what you expect from them, define priorites, and listen to their feedback.

tarsinge 6y ago

Also missing the mix of both WFH and office presence at a chosen %, which is the best for nearly all categories.

Akronymus 6y ago

For a person who has trouble staying with a task, for example me, WFH would be BAD. I NEED at least some supervision to not stray off my tasks. I am not mentally tough and have poor impulse control. Which would almost certainly get me fired in a WFH environment.

jobigoud 6y ago
You have a call with the team every few days where you have to describe what you've done and what you are going to do next. This helps keeping you in check.

speby 6y ago

Definitely agree with these points. You left out some of the more individual ones where personality and preferences come into play. I think that a lot of variability will come down to preferences. Also, it's worth noting that for many people who have not worked from home much (or if at all), they won't really "know" whether or not it's a good setup for themselves until they actually do it for more than a few weeks to start drawing some observations about what works well and what doesn't.

john4532452 6y ago

For middle manager's WFH is terrible. They can't account their time for what they did. For everyone else its great. For parents its great. Parents get to spend commute time with childrens. For developers its just amazing. I can't stress this enough. You get uninterrupted time to design or coding in the zone For hardware startups it might not work, but software its already proven by wordpress, gitlab and many others. Budding engineers can always think before asking senior devs and learn how to ask questions. Most importantly WFH is great to fight against age bias. For any one over 30 this is huge win.

softawre 6y ago
> For middle manager's WFH is terrible. They can't account their time for what they did What do you mean, "account their time for what they did"? As a middle manager myself, I am graded on my projects getting done on time. I don't need to fill out some sort of timecard. Do you?
- john4534243 6y ago
  I think the op was referring to the middle managers who don't code .

thayne 6y ago

For the introvert with misophonia, WFH (or at least a private, quiet workspace) is almost a necessity. Ultimately, I think the best situation is where workers can choose what is best for themselves.