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I can't fathom how the need for young dolphins to lay the groundwork for what is essentially a rape-posse, came to be the path to evolutionary success. It wou

by tux1968 6y ago

I can't fathom how the need for young dolphins to lay the groundwork for what is essentially a rape-posse, came to be the path to evolutionary success. It would seem that consensual reproduction would be the norm in any successful strategy, given the critical need for offspring.

ralph84 6y ago
Why is it hard to fathom? The dolphin waiting for consent to make sweet love never reproduces because the rape-posse gets to the fertile females first. The real world of evolutionary success isn’t all rainbows and unicorns.
- tux1968 6y ago
  Surprised that females aren't wanting to pair and mate with the most desirable males, and why social behaviors that offer some protection are lacking -- female dolphins must have an instinct for reproduction too. If these male dolphins are desirable, why do they need to force themselves? Why wouldn't a female be open to it? If they are not desirable, then evolutionarily speaking, wont this lead to very poor results.
  - ralph84 6y ago
    From an evolutionary perspective, a desirable male is one whose genes will produce offspring with the best chance of reproductive success. Everything else is secondary. The sexy son hypothesis[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexy_son_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexy_son_hypothesis
  - dgb23 6y ago
    Evolution does not have a strategy. It might very well be that this mating concept will be unsustainable in the future. Or it might be that it doesn’t do enough harm, so there isn’t enough pressure for to lose out. Extreme example: there are plenty of unsustainable human behaviors that are the norm right now.
    - tux1968 6y ago
      Understood. The thing that leaves me curious though, is why the females seem so reluctant in general -- enough to make forced insemination the norm. Even though being a parent is very expensive, where is their reproductive impulse? I guess it just isn't needed or ever selected for if reproduction happens without it.
parsimo2010 6y ago
There are many species that don’t care about consent. The ones that do have consent tend to spend a lot of energy growing plumage and doing elaborate dances to woo the females. It shouldn’t be that hard to understand that some species evolution would land on rape as a way to save the time and energy spent during courtship. Just because humans shun rape it doesn’t mean it can’t work for other species, moral issues aside.
- adamsea 6y ago
  The very concept of consent or rape (as moral and ethical concepts - which is why the article uses the word “coerce” instead of “rape”, I bet) are difficult to apply to nonhuman species because they’re not human. [EDIT: interestingly I think this all boils down to considering if dolphins have ethics or “dolphin rights” within their own societies. A violation of a right is logically impossible if the very concept of, or indeed, the right itself, does not exist.] I think it would be really interesting to talk about animal ethics and with very smart mammals like dolphins moral imperatives like consent might be appropriate in some way but I just don’t know. But it’s inaccurate, imho, to talk about rape as a reproductive strategy for animals if we are using that word in the way we use it when we are talking about ourselves (humans). Again not to say the concept is irrelevant to animal life but I think we do both ourselves and animals a disservice if we aren’t careful. If you are speaking with some knowledge of animal ethics but didn’t share it my apologies :)
  - CMCDragonkai 6y ago
    Your comment seems to imply that there's something fundamentally different from humans and other animals.
    - adamsea 6y ago
      Good point. I don't know, I'd like to learn more! I mean we aren't that different from other animals, especially our fellow mammals. And we're all part of nature and life. And it definitely seems like many animals have varying degrees of what we call consciousness or intelligence (octopus!). At the same time there is an obvious difference, though perhaps one of degree and not of kind. The sophistication of our language, social structures, capacity for abstract thought, and toolmaking abilities. Stuff like that.
ggggtez 6y ago
Rape is a successful evolutionary strategy in many animals. See ducks.

ralph84 6y ago

Why is it hard to fathom? The dolphin waiting for consent to make sweet love never reproduces because the rape-posse gets to the fertile females first. The real world of evolutionary success isn’t all rainbows and unicorns.

tux1968 6y ago
Surprised that females aren't wanting to pair and mate with the most desirable males, and why social behaviors that offer some protection are lacking -- female dolphins must have an instinct for reproduction too. If these male dolphins are desirable, why do they need to force themselves? Why wouldn't a female be open to it? If they are not desirable, then evolutionarily speaking, wont this lead to very poor results.
- ralph84 6y ago
  From an evolutionary perspective, a desirable male is one whose genes will produce offspring with the best chance of reproductive success. Everything else is secondary. The sexy son hypothesis[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexy_son_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexy_son_hypothesis
- dgb23 6y ago
  Evolution does not have a strategy. It might very well be that this mating concept will be unsustainable in the future. Or it might be that it doesn’t do enough harm, so there isn’t enough pressure for to lose out. Extreme example: there are plenty of unsustainable human behaviors that are the norm right now.
  - tux1968 6y ago
    Understood. The thing that leaves me curious though, is why the females seem so reluctant in general -- enough to make forced insemination the norm. Even though being a parent is very expensive, where is their reproductive impulse? I guess it just isn't needed or ever selected for if reproduction happens without it.

parsimo2010 6y ago

There are many species that don’t care about consent. The ones that do have consent tend to spend a lot of energy growing plumage and doing elaborate dances to woo the females. It shouldn’t be that hard to understand that some species evolution would land on rape as a way to save the time and energy spent during courtship. Just because humans shun rape it doesn’t mean it can’t work for other species, moral issues aside.

adamsea 6y ago
The very concept of consent or rape (as moral and ethical concepts - which is why the article uses the word “coerce” instead of “rape”, I bet) are difficult to apply to nonhuman species because they’re not human. [EDIT: interestingly I think this all boils down to considering if dolphins have ethics or “dolphin rights” within their own societies. A violation of a right is logically impossible if the very concept of, or indeed, the right itself, does not exist.] I think it would be really interesting to talk about animal ethics and with very smart mammals like dolphins moral imperatives like consent might be appropriate in some way but I just don’t know. But it’s inaccurate, imho, to talk about rape as a reproductive strategy for animals if we are using that word in the way we use it when we are talking about ourselves (humans). Again not to say the concept is irrelevant to animal life but I think we do both ourselves and animals a disservice if we aren’t careful. If you are speaking with some knowledge of animal ethics but didn’t share it my apologies :)
- CMCDragonkai 6y ago
  Your comment seems to imply that there's something fundamentally different from humans and other animals.
  - adamsea 6y ago
    Good point. I don't know, I'd like to learn more! I mean we aren't that different from other animals, especially our fellow mammals. And we're all part of nature and life. And it definitely seems like many animals have varying degrees of what we call consciousness or intelligence (octopus!). At the same time there is an obvious difference, though perhaps one of degree and not of kind. The sophistication of our language, social structures, capacity for abstract thought, and toolmaking abilities. Stuff like that.

ggggtez 6y ago

Rape is a successful evolutionary strategy in many animals. See ducks.