4 ms·

I'm appalled that this passes muster for you as a rational statement, knowing all we do about how parental wealth and education, professional network size and h

by bsanr2 6y ago

I'm appalled that this passes muster for you as a rational statement, knowing all we do about how parental wealth and education, professional network size and health, and even residential location can effect career outcomes in even technical fields. I thought we put this canard to rest.

marcinzm 6y ago
Nothing is perfect, saying something is atrocious because it is not perfect is irrational. Also, if you define "merit based" as "capable of improvement through own effort" then both "professional network size and health" and "residential location" fall under that.
- bsanr2 6y ago
  I would define "merit-based" as "measuring and ranking based on directly relevant capability." There are limited cases where the first contributes to merit, but both are becoming less and less justifiable in a global, or even national, job market.
rowanG077 6y ago
I never said the US is a perfect meritocracy. I said it's not a low merit society. For example if you are good enough you can get an entire free ride to the best education the world has to offer just because you are good. If you make a product that significantly better the competition it will most likely out compete it. If you are significantly better then your peers you can command a higher salary etc. Compare that to India where if you are born into a low caste you can't do anything. Even if you are the most competent person that has ever walked the earth. Not everyone in the US has the exact some opportunities but that is orthogonal to merit. To call it the US a low merit society seems completely bonkers to me.
- bsanr2 6y ago
  This statement is filled with qualifications that render it mostly meaningless. "Good enough," "significantly better," etc., are ill-defined and leave room for the weaseling that crashes any notion of a society that is even mostly meritocratic. Even approaching a 50/50 chance that your outcome is a crapshoot or else weighted by unrelated cultural artifacts is unacceptable. >Compare that to India where if you are born into a low caste you can't do anything. Black men born into the top quintile of family wealth are as likely as black men born in the bottom quintile to die in the bottom quintile. White men born in the top quintile are highly unlikely to drop even to the next lowest quintile. Americans criticizing India's caste system is laughable.
  - rowanG077 6y ago
    Of course the adjectives I'm using are in relative terms rather then absolute. There doesn't exist an absolute measure on how meritocratic a society is. But it's very clear that US society most certainly is a more meritocratic then most other societies. > Black men born into the top quintile of family wealth are as likely as black men born in the bottom quintile to die in the bottom quintile. White men born in the top quintile are highly unlikely to drop even to the next lowest quintile. Americans criticizing India's caste system is laughable. First of all I'm not an American. It's quite funny that you criticize me for not using precise and absolute terms while you yourself use the same terms. Your point is even self-defeating. That a black family(which you indirectly compare to a low cast family in India, which I don't agree with. But that's beside the point.) can be in the top quintile already means that the situation in America is vastly better then in India.
    - bsanr2 6y ago
      How can something that you claim is unmeasurable possibly be clear enough to pass such judgment on? You're not making sense. >First of all I'm not an American. I'd like to know what then qualifies you to make these statements. With this: >That a black family(which you indirectly compare to a low cast family in India, which I don't agree with. But that's beside the point.) can be in the top quintile already means that the situation in America is vastly better then in India. you're revealing a poor understanding of racial and social dynamics in America. Perhaps of India, too; there are Dalit millionaires, after all.
      - rowanG077 6y ago
        I don't claim it's unmeasurable. I claim there is no absolute scale. That's very different from eachother. This conversation doesn't make sense for me to continue since you keep assuming things about me and claiming I said things I never said. I don't like such bad faith arguments.
username90 6y ago
The study you are commenting on showed that intelligence is a greater predictor of pay than parental wealth. It might not be perfect, but your pay is far from determined by your parents.

by bsanr2 6y ago

marcinzm 6y ago

Nothing is perfect, saying something is atrocious because it is not perfect is irrational. Also, if you define "merit based" as "capable of improvement through own effort" then both "professional network size and health" and "residential location" fall under that.

bsanr2 6y ago
I would define "merit-based" as "measuring and ranking based on directly relevant capability." There are limited cases where the first contributes to merit, but both are becoming less and less justifiable in a global, or even national, job market.

rowanG077 6y ago

I never said the US is a perfect meritocracy. I said it's not a low merit society. For example if you are good enough you can get an entire free ride to the best education the world has to offer just because you are good. If you make a product that significantly better the competition it will most likely out compete it. If you are significantly better then your peers you can command a higher salary etc. Compare that to India where if you are born into a low caste you can't do anything. Even if you are the most competent person that has ever walked the earth. Not everyone in the US has the exact some opportunities but that is orthogonal to merit. To call it the US a low merit society seems completely bonkers to me.

bsanr2 6y ago
This statement is filled with qualifications that render it mostly meaningless. "Good enough," "significantly better," etc., are ill-defined and leave room for the weaseling that crashes any notion of a society that is even mostly meritocratic. Even approaching a 50/50 chance that your outcome is a crapshoot or else weighted by unrelated cultural artifacts is unacceptable. >Compare that to India where if you are born into a low caste you can't do anything. Black men born into the top quintile of family wealth are as likely as black men born in the bottom quintile to die in the bottom quintile. White men born in the top quintile are highly unlikely to drop even to the next lowest quintile. Americans criticizing India's caste system is laughable.
- rowanG077 6y ago
  Of course the adjectives I'm using are in relative terms rather then absolute. There doesn't exist an absolute measure on how meritocratic a society is. But it's very clear that US society most certainly is a more meritocratic then most other societies. > Black men born into the top quintile of family wealth are as likely as black men born in the bottom quintile to die in the bottom quintile. White men born in the top quintile are highly unlikely to drop even to the next lowest quintile. Americans criticizing India's caste system is laughable. First of all I'm not an American. It's quite funny that you criticize me for not using precise and absolute terms while you yourself use the same terms. Your point is even self-defeating. That a black family(which you indirectly compare to a low cast family in India, which I don't agree with. But that's beside the point.) can be in the top quintile already means that the situation in America is vastly better then in India.
  - bsanr2 6y ago
    How can something that you claim is unmeasurable possibly be clear enough to pass such judgment on? You're not making sense. >First of all I'm not an American. I'd like to know what then qualifies you to make these statements. With this: >That a black family(which you indirectly compare to a low cast family in India, which I don't agree with. But that's beside the point.) can be in the top quintile already means that the situation in America is vastly better then in India. you're revealing a poor understanding of racial and social dynamics in America. Perhaps of India, too; there are Dalit millionaires, after all.
    - rowanG077 6y ago
      I don't claim it's unmeasurable. I claim there is no absolute scale. That's very different from eachother. This conversation doesn't make sense for me to continue since you keep assuming things about me and claiming I said things I never said. I don't like such bad faith arguments.

username90 6y ago

The study you are commenting on showed that intelligence is a greater predictor of pay than parental wealth. It might not be perfect, but your pay is far from determined by your parents.