5 ms·

The difference between Spanish and Mandarin is that Mandarin is much more information dense. In fact, it's the only widely spoken language more information dens

by _4jlx 6y ago

The difference between Spanish and Mandarin is that Mandarin is much more information dense. In fact, it's the only widely spoken language more information dense than English. Aside from that, english is just such a meh language. Asian kids get higher math scores in part because mandarin's numbering system actually makes sense ('eleven, twelve, thirteen' don't include the words one, two, or three, while the numerical representations include 1, 2, 3). You can consistently memorize a phone number in mandarin, but you can't in english because the syllables are too long. Thinking about money in mandarin biases people towards long term saving, while thinking about money in English biases people towards short term spending. Basically, it's like a less drastic version of the movie 'Arrival'. I think not long after the idea that language can actively be designed to our benefit becomes more popular, we might be speaking an entirely language altogether. Language design is unlike city design or technology design in that there are no technological or budgetary constraints, no 'real world' tradeoffs to make. You can theoretically invent the perfect language tomorrow and it wouldn't cost you anything except time. One of the only things that can improve humans for basically free.

tuxxy 6y ago
> Aside from that, english is just such a meh language. Asian kids get higher math scores in part because mandarin's numbering system actually makes sense ('eleven, twelve, thirteen' don't include the words one, two, or three, while the numerical representations include 1, 2, 3). This doesn't represent a fact of any sort of linguistic truth whatsoever.
- _4jlx 6y ago
  These are research findings, not my own ideas: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-language-for-math-1410304008 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-language-for-math-1410...
  - nix23 6y ago
    >Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Turkish use simpler number words and express math concepts more clearly than English Than English...that article is complete bullshit, the Inuits have 30 different words for snow = more information density, but is it usable for every culture?
    - bobbyz 6y ago
      Can you elaborate on how having 30 words for snow affects a language's information density?
      - nix23 6y ago
        English needs maybe 4-5 five words to describe a particular snow condition (hard crust but underneath soft and wet), Inuits have one single word for that exact snow-condition therefore a higher information density (for that situation)
        _4jlx 6y ago
        This is not the information density we are referring to.
  - wenc 6y ago
    This idea has been floating around for decades (wouldn't surprise me some researchers decided to test it), but its exact claims are only around ease of counting and arithmetic (the very basic levels), not mathematics as a whole. Ease of counting numerals doesn't necessarily translate to overall mathematical ability. French and Russian have fairly complicated numerals, but many of the world's best mathematicians also happen to be French and Russian speaking... and of course, English speaking. At the higher levels of mathematics, abstract thinking becomes more important than arithmetic. It's not obvious to me that facility at arithmetic is necessarily advantageous then. In fact, I wonder if highly inflected languages (Latin-derived) or those with complex grammars (Hungarian, Slavic) train the brain to work with symbols more efficiently.
    - bobbyz 6y ago
      You may be right about the abstract thinking, but if we're talking strictly in terms of PISA test scores, Russia and France performed only slightly above average in a fairly recent year. However, I acknowledge that measuring mathematical proficiency with test scores alone is flawed.
_4jlx 6y ago
Just did a Google. From my napkin calculations, spanish has 66% the information density that mandarin has.
- nix23 6y ago
  >information density That has absolutely nothing to do with usability.
perl4ever 6y ago
>You can consistently memorize a phone number in mandarin, but you can't in english because the syllables are too long I'm not sure what this means. I do memorize phone numbers in english, albeit not very much these days due to the phone address book. But this made me contemplate whether I am memorizing the words or the numbers. When I repeat my phone number to myself, I "hear" the english words, but I "see" the numbers.
- _4jlx 6y ago
  This is also from a study. The gist is that english single-digit numbers take longer to say/think than mandarin single-digit numbers (1/3 second vs 1/4 second), and so 9 digits in english be slightly too long to be consistently memorizable for most people. There are more authoritative sources but this is what I found: https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2011/07/01/137527742/china-s-unnatural-math-advantage-their-words https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2011/07/01/137527742/c... Also, when I say them aloud or in my head, mandarin numbers are clearly shorter. Upon further research, it seems like Vietnamese is also very information dense.
  - nix23 6y ago
    >The gist is that English single-digit numbers take longer to say/think than mandarin That has nothing to say, compare it to programming languages, is the language with the least LOC's the best language? No, often its a mix.
    - bobbyz 6y ago
      You're thinking about it from purely a programmer's perspective. Imagine the world switches to "bobish" tomorrow, which is 20% more efficient than english. Suddenly, bandwidth decreases by 20%, downloads are 20% faster, server costs decrease 20%, data centre energy usage decreases by 20%, greenhouse gases from data centres decrease by 20%, and so global warming slows down by _% and on and on. Sure it won't be 20%, it might not be nearly that in many cases, but think about the magnitude of the rube goldberg of unknown efficiency increases you'll set off.
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
> Thinking about money in mandarin biases people towards long term saving, while thinking about money in English biases people towards short term spending. This sounds like absolute baloney. What is your basis for claiming this?
- bobbyz 6y ago
  A study I read, I'd dig it up but I've done that twice already, perhaps you can do a quick google? Here's a starting point: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=222702007 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=222702...

by _4jlx 6y ago

tuxxy 6y ago

> Aside from that, english is just such a meh language. Asian kids get higher math scores in part because mandarin's numbering system actually makes sense ('eleven, twelve, thirteen' don't include the words one, two, or three, while the numerical representations include 1, 2, 3). This doesn't represent a fact of any sort of linguistic truth whatsoever.

_4jlx 6y ago
These are research findings, not my own ideas: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-language-for-math-1410304008 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-language-for-math-1410...
- nix23 6y ago
  >Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Turkish use simpler number words and express math concepts more clearly than English Than English...that article is complete bullshit, the Inuits have 30 different words for snow = more information density, but is it usable for every culture?
  - bobbyz 6y ago
    Can you elaborate on how having 30 words for snow affects a language's information density?
    - nix23 6y ago
      English needs maybe 4-5 five words to describe a particular snow condition (hard crust but underneath soft and wet), Inuits have one single word for that exact snow-condition therefore a higher information density (for that situation)
      - _4jlx 6y ago
        This is not the information density we are referring to.
- wenc 6y ago
  This idea has been floating around for decades (wouldn't surprise me some researchers decided to test it), but its exact claims are only around ease of counting and arithmetic (the very basic levels), not mathematics as a whole. Ease of counting numerals doesn't necessarily translate to overall mathematical ability. French and Russian have fairly complicated numerals, but many of the world's best mathematicians also happen to be French and Russian speaking... and of course, English speaking. At the higher levels of mathematics, abstract thinking becomes more important than arithmetic. It's not obvious to me that facility at arithmetic is necessarily advantageous then. In fact, I wonder if highly inflected languages (Latin-derived) or those with complex grammars (Hungarian, Slavic) train the brain to work with symbols more efficiently.
  - bobbyz 6y ago
    You may be right about the abstract thinking, but if we're talking strictly in terms of PISA test scores, Russia and France performed only slightly above average in a fairly recent year. However, I acknowledge that measuring mathematical proficiency with test scores alone is flawed.

_4jlx 6y ago

Just did a Google. From my napkin calculations, spanish has 66% the information density that mandarin has.

nix23 6y ago
>information density That has absolutely nothing to do with usability.

perl4ever 6y ago

>You can consistently memorize a phone number in mandarin, but you can't in english because the syllables are too long I'm not sure what this means. I do memorize phone numbers in english, albeit not very much these days due to the phone address book. But this made me contemplate whether I am memorizing the words or the numbers. When I repeat my phone number to myself, I "hear" the english words, but I "see" the numbers.

_4jlx 6y ago
This is also from a study. The gist is that english single-digit numbers take longer to say/think than mandarin single-digit numbers (1/3 second vs 1/4 second), and so 9 digits in english be slightly too long to be consistently memorizable for most people. There are more authoritative sources but this is what I found: https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2011/07/01/137527742/china-s-unnatural-math-advantage-their-words https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2011/07/01/137527742/c... Also, when I say them aloud or in my head, mandarin numbers are clearly shorter. Upon further research, it seems like Vietnamese is also very information dense.
- nix23 6y ago
  >The gist is that English single-digit numbers take longer to say/think than mandarin That has nothing to say, compare it to programming languages, is the language with the least LOC's the best language? No, often its a mix.
  - bobbyz 6y ago
    You're thinking about it from purely a programmer's perspective. Imagine the world switches to "bobish" tomorrow, which is 20% more efficient than english. Suddenly, bandwidth decreases by 20%, downloads are 20% faster, server costs decrease 20%, data centre energy usage decreases by 20%, greenhouse gases from data centres decrease by 20%, and so global warming slows down by _% and on and on. Sure it won't be 20%, it might not be nearly that in many cases, but think about the magnitude of the rube goldberg of unknown efficiency increases you'll set off.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

> Thinking about money in mandarin biases people towards long term saving, while thinking about money in English biases people towards short term spending. This sounds like absolute baloney. What is your basis for claiming this?

bobbyz 6y ago
A study I read, I'd dig it up but I've done that twice already, perhaps you can do a quick google? Here's a starting point: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=222702007 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=222702...