6 ms·

Is this a serious article? I know Intelligent people who have studied Mandarin for 10 years actively making an effort and are still unable to read a newspaper.

by iorrus 6y ago

Is this a serious article? I know Intelligent people who have studied Mandarin for 10 years actively making an effort and are still unable to read a newspaper. So it’s extremely unlikely that mandarin will become a dominant text based language, possibly might become more popular for verbal communication in Africa and places like that.

darthoctopus 6y ago
the assertion being made here is not that Mandarin will become a dominant text-based language; it already is one. rather, the argument is that the ascendancy of China, abetted by its economic strategy in the developing world, will force Mandarin into a more central position on the Internet, like it or not.
- nix23 6y ago
  >will force Mandarin into a more central position on the Internet, like it or not. Not really, compare it to Spanish. China will also have to understand that the World is bigger then China, the rest of the World accepted English as THE technical language of "choice". Chinese have to learn English, like it or not.
  - _4jlx 6y ago
    The difference between Spanish and Mandarin is that Mandarin is much more information dense. In fact, it's the only widely spoken language more information dense than English. Aside from that, english is just such a meh language. Asian kids get higher math scores in part because mandarin's numbering system actually makes sense ('eleven, twelve, thirteen' don't include the words one, two, or three, while the numerical representations include 1, 2, 3). You can consistently memorize a phone number in mandarin, but you can't in english because the syllables are too long. Thinking about money in mandarin biases people towards long term saving, while thinking about money in English biases people towards short term spending. Basically, it's like a less drastic version of the movie 'Arrival'. I think not long after the idea that language can actively be designed to our benefit becomes more popular, we might be speaking an entirely language altogether. Language design is unlike city design or technology design in that there are no technological or budgetary constraints, no 'real world' tradeoffs to make. You can theoretically invent the perfect language tomorrow and it wouldn't cost you anything except time. One of the only things that can improve humans for basically free.
    - tuxxy 6y ago
      > Aside from that, english is just such a meh language. Asian kids get higher math scores in part because mandarin's numbering system actually makes sense ('eleven, twelve, thirteen' don't include the words one, two, or three, while the numerical representations include 1, 2, 3). This doesn't represent a fact of any sort of linguistic truth whatsoever.
      - _4jlx 6y ago
        These are research findings, not my own ideas: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-language-for-math-1410304008 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-language-for-math-1410...
        nix23 6y ago
        >Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Turkish use simpler number words and express math concepts more clearly than English Than English...that article is complete bullshit, the Inuits have 30 different words for snow = more information density, but is it usable for every culture?
        bobbyz 6y ago
        Can you elaborate on how having 30 words for snow affects a language's information density?
        nix23 6y ago
        English needs maybe 4-5 five words to describe a particular snow condition (hard crust but underneath soft and wet), Inuits have one single word for that exact snow-condition therefore a higher information density (for that situation)
        _4jlx 6y ago
        This is not the information density we are referring to.
- arcturus17 6y ago
  One of the most important factors making languages like English or Spanish central to the internet is that they are spoken widely across the globe by people of diverse nations and cultures. What are the odds of that happening with Mandarin? Sure, it might be “central“ to understanding the discourse of almost a quarter of the world’s population, but then the same argument could be made for Hindi. Also, let’s not forget that Chinese discourse is not free, and that will negatively affect the centrality of all of its languages.
  - _4jlx 6y ago
    This is because China has historically been much less colonialist than some other nations.
- Proven 6y ago
  No it won't, because mainland China has limited Internet access and nothing can be published without State approval. Locals consume CCP-approved content because there's no other content available. Would you learn a language knowing you'd use it to consume mostly Fake News?
- ThrowawayR2 6y ago
  That's what people said about Japanese back in the '80s; you practically couldn't open a newspaper without seeing somebody mention it. Didn't happen.
  - bobbyz 6y ago
    The difference this time around is that Chinese has almost double the information density of Japanese, and the Chinese middle class is a lot bigger ($$$).
    - Nasrudith 6y ago
      Aren't we long past the text information density mattering? Text is negligible in comparison to even still images.
      - bobbyz 6y ago
        From my quite limited understanding, english is involved at some level during image and video encoding.
- monkeydreams 6y ago
  > rather, the argument is that the ascendancy of China, abetted by its economic strategy in the developing world, will force Mandarin into a more central position on the Internet, like it or not. I can't see how China can ascend much further. They are hedged in by powerful nations who see China's military ambitions as their own loss. They have no allies of note and are bordered by several unstable regions (some of whom possess nuclear weapons). Economically, they have already converted the bulk of their regional citizens to urban workers. Their growth is largely bound to the debt expansion they promote and, while they are hardly alone in this, they are centralising and making their economy more rigid rather than making it flexible enough to cope with the inevitable restructure. Politicians and public servants appear (from my perspective) to make decisions based on who these will make happy and who they will upset. The Chinese culture does not appear to be making any headway into selling itself to the world. Few people want to immigrate to China and become Chinese (outside of academic interest of course), but the West remains a destination for people who want to take a chance on making a fortune. Lastly China has walled off its internet. While they are happy for brigading to occur on certain topics, they must balance this need with the possibility that someone might compare Xi to a certain pooh bear or be reminded of Tienanmen Square for all the wrong reasons. There are paths China might take to global ascendancy. There are no signs that they are willing, much less capable, of walking them.

by iorrus 6y ago

darthoctopus 6y ago

the assertion being made here is not that Mandarin will become a dominant text-based language; it already is one. rather, the argument is that the ascendancy of China, abetted by its economic strategy in the developing world, will force Mandarin into a more central position on the Internet, like it or not.

nix23 6y ago
>will force Mandarin into a more central position on the Internet, like it or not. Not really, compare it to Spanish. China will also have to understand that the World is bigger then China, the rest of the World accepted English as THE technical language of "choice". Chinese have to learn English, like it or not.
- _4jlx 6y ago
  The difference between Spanish and Mandarin is that Mandarin is much more information dense. In fact, it's the only widely spoken language more information dense than English. Aside from that, english is just such a meh language. Asian kids get higher math scores in part because mandarin's numbering system actually makes sense ('eleven, twelve, thirteen' don't include the words one, two, or three, while the numerical representations include 1, 2, 3). You can consistently memorize a phone number in mandarin, but you can't in english because the syllables are too long. Thinking about money in mandarin biases people towards long term saving, while thinking about money in English biases people towards short term spending. Basically, it's like a less drastic version of the movie 'Arrival'. I think not long after the idea that language can actively be designed to our benefit becomes more popular, we might be speaking an entirely language altogether. Language design is unlike city design or technology design in that there are no technological or budgetary constraints, no 'real world' tradeoffs to make. You can theoretically invent the perfect language tomorrow and it wouldn't cost you anything except time. One of the only things that can improve humans for basically free.
  - tuxxy 6y ago
    > Aside from that, english is just such a meh language. Asian kids get higher math scores in part because mandarin's numbering system actually makes sense ('eleven, twelve, thirteen' don't include the words one, two, or three, while the numerical representations include 1, 2, 3). This doesn't represent a fact of any sort of linguistic truth whatsoever.
    - _4jlx 6y ago
      These are research findings, not my own ideas: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-language-for-math-1410304008 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-best-language-for-math-1410...
      - nix23 6y ago
        >Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Turkish use simpler number words and express math concepts more clearly than English Than English...that article is complete bullshit, the Inuits have 30 different words for snow = more information density, but is it usable for every culture?
        bobbyz 6y ago
        Can you elaborate on how having 30 words for snow affects a language's information density?
        nix23 6y ago
        English needs maybe 4-5 five words to describe a particular snow condition (hard crust but underneath soft and wet), Inuits have one single word for that exact snow-condition therefore a higher information density (for that situation)
        _4jlx 6y ago
        This is not the information density we are referring to.
arcturus17 6y ago
One of the most important factors making languages like English or Spanish central to the internet is that they are spoken widely across the globe by people of diverse nations and cultures. What are the odds of that happening with Mandarin? Sure, it might be “central“ to understanding the discourse of almost a quarter of the world’s population, but then the same argument could be made for Hindi. Also, let’s not forget that Chinese discourse is not free, and that will negatively affect the centrality of all of its languages.
- _4jlx 6y ago
  This is because China has historically been much less colonialist than some other nations.
Proven 6y ago
No it won't, because mainland China has limited Internet access and nothing can be published without State approval. Locals consume CCP-approved content because there's no other content available. Would you learn a language knowing you'd use it to consume mostly Fake News?
ThrowawayR2 6y ago
That's what people said about Japanese back in the '80s; you practically couldn't open a newspaper without seeing somebody mention it. Didn't happen.
- bobbyz 6y ago
  The difference this time around is that Chinese has almost double the information density of Japanese, and the Chinese middle class is a lot bigger ($$$).
  - Nasrudith 6y ago
    Aren't we long past the text information density mattering? Text is negligible in comparison to even still images.
    - bobbyz 6y ago
      From my quite limited understanding, english is involved at some level during image and video encoding.
monkeydreams 6y ago
> rather, the argument is that the ascendancy of China, abetted by its economic strategy in the developing world, will force Mandarin into a more central position on the Internet, like it or not. I can't see how China can ascend much further. They are hedged in by powerful nations who see China's military ambitions as their own loss. They have no allies of note and are bordered by several unstable regions (some of whom possess nuclear weapons). Economically, they have already converted the bulk of their regional citizens to urban workers. Their growth is largely bound to the debt expansion they promote and, while they are hardly alone in this, they are centralising and making their economy more rigid rather than making it flexible enough to cope with the inevitable restructure. Politicians and public servants appear (from my perspective) to make decisions based on who these will make happy and who they will upset. The Chinese culture does not appear to be making any headway into selling itself to the world. Few people want to immigrate to China and become Chinese (outside of academic interest of course), but the West remains a destination for people who want to take a chance on making a fortune. Lastly China has walled off its internet. While they are happy for brigading to occur on certain topics, they must balance this need with the possibility that someone might compare Xi to a certain pooh bear or be reminded of Tienanmen Square for all the wrong reasons. There are paths China might take to global ascendancy. There are no signs that they are willing, much less capable, of walking them.