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>Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That destroys the curiosity this site exists for. I don't understand how those two sentences

>Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That destroys the curiosity this site exists for. I don't understand how those two sentences are related. I've never heard a political or ideological battle explained as being "curiosity destroying".

dang 6y ago
In ideological battle the goal is to defeat enemies. In curious conversation the goal is to learn from each other. One is a fight to the finish, the other is open exchange. These don't go together, for the same reason that boxing and dancing don't go together. It's obvious if you observe how people behave in ideological battle. They do not receive information from one another and then change. Rather, they use points as weapons to try to crush the other side. Here's the crux from an HN point of view: because the goal is to win rather than to learn, each side resorts to its best weapons over and over. In other words, each side behaves repetitively. Repetition fries curiosity. Since HN is for curiosity, we try to minimize repetition [1]. In battle, repetition is crucial because there are only so many ways to hit the other side and you need to do it over and over in order to win. If you don't repeat, you don't survive. But curiosity looks for something new over what has already been said or done. Curiosity wants the diffs [2]. Imagine software that would compare two threads A and B and output only the logical diffs of what was said in A vs. B. (that is, not diffs between the exact words used, but between the thoughts and feelings expressed). How much output would it produce when A and B are flamewars on the same subject? Virtually zero. That's the salient issue for HN. The best HN posts are the ones that can't be predicted from any previous sequence [3], and flamewars are the most predictable from the previous sequence. There are other aspects too. Here's one. In battle mode, the nervous system goes into fight/flight mode, which triggers reflexive responses in people. You can observe this by sensing how you react when you encounter the weapons of the opposing side on the internet. This state is incompatible with curious exchange, in which we learn new things from each other and adapt. Human beings require a certain relaxation in order to be open to each other in this way—again, anyone can observe this in the difference between when they're angrily defending vs. playfully interacting. The difference between the two styles of conversation—reflexive vs. reflective, closed vs. open—is palpable and stark. They can't happen at the same time and on HN we want one and not the other [4]. I hope it's clear that the issue is not politics as such [5]. To the extent that one can have curious conversation about political topics in which people exchange information, learn from each other, reflect on what the other says and take in any truth in it instead of getting triggered by it, and don't simply repeat things, such conversation is within the site guidelines. Of course it's hard for such threads not to collapse into a high-indignation-low-information state. Nevertheless, that's what we ask users here to do, and that's what the guideline quoted by the OP is getting at. We have to, because if we don't, the forum will burn itself to a crisp [6]. Flamewars, especially political flamewars, have many secondary effects, and the chance of getting into a destructive feedback loop is high. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20curiosity%20repetition&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu..., https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20discussion&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20diffs&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... [3] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20can%27t%20predict%20from%20sequence&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... [4] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20reflective%20reflex&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... [5] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20political%20overlap&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... [6] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20crisp%20burn&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que..., https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20scorched%20earth&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
cjfd 6y ago
I think it is pretty obvious. An ideology is something that has a very narrow set of answers to every problem. It can easily preempt much or even any actual thinking. On a forum one can easily end up in a screaming battle between ideologies that has exactly zero informational content. If one happens to already know the ideologies in question, and one probably does because there is not really much that is new in this area, one could write out the whole discussion just by oneself in advance and not be off by much.
soulofmischief 6y ago
I come to Hacker News to learn. If I want to argue without end, I go to reddit.
- Falling3 6y ago
  There's the exact same opportunity for learning when it comes to politics. The difference in discourse on HN is ostensibly the content, but we all know the thing that really separates this from other forums is the quality of the discussion.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
sidcool 6y ago
I see them very related. Two people can have passionate tech discussion, but a political one can create rift and affect genuine discussions. It's subjective, but I don't find it untenable.
Shared404 6y ago
A "political or ideological battle" may not directly destroy curiosity in an ideal world. However, too many people have their politics define who they are and become defensive when challenged. This can (and frequently does) lead to flame wars and useless discussions, which are directly curiosity destroying. HN is better than most forums at keeping this in check, but that's at least partially because when these discussions get out of hand they get shut down.
kstenerud 6y ago
Because whenever there's a battle in the comments, it drowns out all the interesting comments and makes it hard for anyone curious about the subject to see the interesting points of view. As a quick heuristic, if there are more than 150 comments, there's a high probability that it's descended into either an ideological battle, or an obtuse snark-fest over semantics or edge cases.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  This is a technology problem. It’s a symptom of an imperfect commenting system. With a better system, just like in real life, I would more easily be able to only pay attention to the things I want to pay attention to.
  - was8309 6y ago
    > This is a technology problem totally agree, but I'd love to see a technology that's even better than real life like a discussion site where for each post, users could navigate a 'discussion topology/taxonomy' (i don't know the real terms?). There wouldn't be a need for adding comments that are just restating a position, you would just 'vote' for the position. You could add a new position, a new reason for a position, or new evidence for a reason for a position. The meta discussion the topology itself would be interesting. It would rarely achieve conflict resolution, but it would force us to better define our positions/reasons/evidence/core beliefs, and maybe help us understand others
  - dang 6y ago
    For better or worse, HN is a non-siloed site (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20silo&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...), meaning everyone sees the same things and is in one big room together. There are certainly design choices there, but each online community has its initial condition set and its pros and cons that flow from that. I don't think it's a question of perfection. It probably would not be wise to mess with those initial conditions—that would likely cause unintended consequences, so the bar to clear to justify it would have to be very high. I've written about the pros and cons of the non-siloed format here, if anyone's interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098. It leads to a rather paradoxical situation.
rdiddly 6y ago
The louder you have to shout it, the less interesting it is, and the less interesting people find it, the louder you have to shout it.
thyrsus 6y ago
It is regretably the case that holders of strong ideologies or political beliefs frequently are dismissive - "incurious" - of facts and arguments that challenge their beliefs, and often use many of the other abjured rhetorical devices in this list to champion their point of view.
threatofrain 6y ago
Plus I don't understand why curiosity is the value of the community. Is it? There are so many kinds of values, and even a nuance between learning and mere curiosity. Recently black American experiences have been a conversation here on HN — if this conflicts with curiosity, then which is more valuable? Or are we talking about the values prescribed by the proprietors of HN?
- dang 6y ago
  Curiosity is the value of the community because that's how it got started and that has always been its mandate. It's simply a question of being one kind of site rather than another. Does such a site have a right to exist? I think it does; the alternative would be that all sites must be the same, and that can't be right. If so, it needs to be operated in a way that preserves it for that mandate. The default outcome is certainly not that, so we expend a lot of energy trying to stave that off, as one must when trying to escape entropy. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20stave&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... The idea of "black American experiences conflicting with curiosity" strikes me as a bizarre formulation.
  - threatofrain 6y ago
    > The idea of "black American experiences conflicting with curiosity" strikes me as a bizarre formulation. BLM and its concerns for justice is considered a very political topic. Black issues in America aren’t about to become an unpolitical issue. An oft repeated argument is that political activist speech kills curiosity. There’s no transparent line to know when political speech is curious enough not to violate site rules. Also, where does the mandate of the site come from? The president of YC? My worry is that the prescriptions of the site don’t seem to have any story for evolution.
    - dang 6y ago
      There have been many threads about those topics (the situation as of a month ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962) and related topics. I particularly liked https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23669188 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23669188 because it got so many comments from black HN users sharing their experience. Similar examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23540162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23540162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23772359 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23772359 There's plenty of curious conversation there. There's also plenty of flamebait and flamewar, unfortunately, but that's unavoidable when the society at large is divided on a topic—or rather societies, since we have the added dimension of being a highly international community to deal with. The HN guidelines are written in such a way as to encourage the former and discourage the latter, but there are limits to what's achievable. HN's mandate comes from how it was created. It has its particular niche. I think it's a good niche that is worth preserving, and I'm pretty sure the bulk of the community agrees, since that's why people come here. In a way, I like that you're questioning it, though. If the argument becomes "HN should have a different mandate", this suggests that it's doing an ok job of fulfilling the existing one.

dang 6y ago

In ideological battle the goal is to defeat enemies. In curious conversation the goal is to learn from each other. One is a fight to the finish, the other is open exchange. These don't go together, for the same reason that boxing and dancing don't go together. It's obvious if you observe how people behave in ideological battle. They do not receive information from one another and then change. Rather, they use points as weapons to try to crush the other side. Here's the crux from an HN point of view: because the goal is to win rather than to learn, each side resorts to its best weapons over and over. In other words, each side behaves repetitively. Repetition fries curiosity. Since HN is for curiosity, we try to minimize repetition [1]. In battle, repetition is crucial because there are only so many ways to hit the other side and you need to do it over and over in order to win. If you don't repeat, you don't survive. But curiosity looks for something new over what has already been said or done. Curiosity wants the diffs [2]. Imagine software that would compare two threads A and B and output only the logical diffs of what was said in A vs. B. (that is, not diffs between the exact words used, but between the thoughts and feelings expressed). How much output would it produce when A and B are flamewars on the same subject? Virtually zero. That's the salient issue for HN. The best HN posts are the ones that can't be predicted from any previous sequence [3], and flamewars are the most predictable from the previous sequence. There are other aspects too. Here's one. In battle mode, the nervous system goes into fight/flight mode, which triggers reflexive responses in people. You can observe this by sensing how you react when you encounter the weapons of the opposing side on the internet. This state is incompatible with curious exchange, in which we learn new things from each other and adapt. Human beings require a certain relaxation in order to be open to each other in this way—again, anyone can observe this in the difference between when they're angrily defending vs. playfully interacting. The difference between the two styles of conversation—reflexive vs. reflective, closed vs. open—is palpable and stark. They can't happen at the same time and on HN we want one and not the other [4]. I hope it's clear that the issue is not politics as such [5]. To the extent that one can have curious conversation about political topics in which people exchange information, learn from each other, reflect on what the other says and take in any truth in it instead of getting triggered by it, and don't simply repeat things, such conversation is within the site guidelines. Of course it's hard for such threads not to collapse into a high-indignation-low-information state. Nevertheless, that's what we ask users here to do, and that's what the guideline quoted by the OP is getting at. We have to, because if we don't, the forum will burn itself to a crisp [6]. Flamewars, especially political flamewars, have many secondary effects, and the chance of getting into a destructive feedback loop is high. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20curiosity%20repetition&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu..., https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20discussion&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20diffs&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... [3] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20can%27t%20predict%20from%20sequence&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... [4] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20reflective%20reflex&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... [5] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20political%20overlap&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... [6] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20crisp%20burn&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que..., https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20scorched%20earth&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

cjfd 6y ago

I think it is pretty obvious. An ideology is something that has a very narrow set of answers to every problem. It can easily preempt much or even any actual thinking. On a forum one can easily end up in a screaming battle between ideologies that has exactly zero informational content. If one happens to already know the ideologies in question, and one probably does because there is not really much that is new in this area, one could write out the whole discussion just by oneself in advance and not be off by much.

soulofmischief 6y ago

I come to Hacker News to learn. If I want to argue without end, I go to reddit.

Falling3 6y ago
There's the exact same opportunity for learning when it comes to politics. The difference in discourse on HN is ostensibly the content, but we all know the thing that really separates this from other forums is the quality of the discussion.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

sidcool 6y ago

I see them very related. Two people can have passionate tech discussion, but a political one can create rift and affect genuine discussions. It's subjective, but I don't find it untenable.

Shared404 6y ago

A "political or ideological battle" may not directly destroy curiosity in an ideal world. However, too many people have their politics define who they are and become defensive when challenged. This can (and frequently does) lead to flame wars and useless discussions, which are directly curiosity destroying. HN is better than most forums at keeping this in check, but that's at least partially because when these discussions get out of hand they get shut down.

kstenerud 6y ago

Because whenever there's a battle in the comments, it drowns out all the interesting comments and makes it hard for anyone curious about the subject to see the interesting points of view. As a quick heuristic, if there are more than 150 comments, there's a high probability that it's descended into either an ideological battle, or an obtuse snark-fest over semantics or edge cases.

wayneftw 6y ago
This is a technology problem. It’s a symptom of an imperfect commenting system. With a better system, just like in real life, I would more easily be able to only pay attention to the things I want to pay attention to.
- was8309 6y ago
  > This is a technology problem totally agree, but I'd love to see a technology that's even better than real life like a discussion site where for each post, users could navigate a 'discussion topology/taxonomy' (i don't know the real terms?). There wouldn't be a need for adding comments that are just restating a position, you would just 'vote' for the position. You could add a new position, a new reason for a position, or new evidence for a reason for a position. The meta discussion the topology itself would be interesting. It would rarely achieve conflict resolution, but it would force us to better define our positions/reasons/evidence/core beliefs, and maybe help us understand others
- dang 6y ago
  For better or worse, HN is a non-siloed site (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20silo&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...), meaning everyone sees the same things and is in one big room together. There are certainly design choices there, but each online community has its initial condition set and its pros and cons that flow from that. I don't think it's a question of perfection. It probably would not be wise to mess with those initial conditions—that would likely cause unintended consequences, so the bar to clear to justify it would have to be very high. I've written about the pros and cons of the non-siloed format here, if anyone's interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098. It leads to a rather paradoxical situation.

rdiddly 6y ago

The louder you have to shout it, the less interesting it is, and the less interesting people find it, the louder you have to shout it.

thyrsus 6y ago

It is regretably the case that holders of strong ideologies or political beliefs frequently are dismissive - "incurious" - of facts and arguments that challenge their beliefs, and often use many of the other abjured rhetorical devices in this list to champion their point of view.

threatofrain 6y ago

Plus I don't understand why curiosity is the value of the community. Is it? There are so many kinds of values, and even a nuance between learning and mere curiosity. Recently black American experiences have been a conversation here on HN — if this conflicts with curiosity, then which is more valuable? Or are we talking about the values prescribed by the proprietors of HN?

dang 6y ago
Curiosity is the value of the community because that's how it got started and that has always been its mandate. It's simply a question of being one kind of site rather than another. Does such a site have a right to exist? I think it does; the alternative would be that all sites must be the same, and that can't be right. If so, it needs to be operated in a way that preserves it for that mandate. The default outcome is certainly not that, so we expend a lot of energy trying to stave that off, as one must when trying to escape entropy. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20stave&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... The idea of "black American experiences conflicting with curiosity" strikes me as a bizarre formulation.
- threatofrain 6y ago
  > The idea of "black American experiences conflicting with curiosity" strikes me as a bizarre formulation. BLM and its concerns for justice is considered a very political topic. Black issues in America aren’t about to become an unpolitical issue. An oft repeated argument is that political activist speech kills curiosity. There’s no transparent line to know when political speech is curious enough not to violate site rules. Also, where does the mandate of the site come from? The president of YC? My worry is that the prescriptions of the site don’t seem to have any story for evolution.
  - dang 6y ago
    There have been many threads about those topics (the situation as of a month ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962) and related topics. I particularly liked https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23669188 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23669188 because it got so many comments from black HN users sharing their experience. Similar examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23540162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23540162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23772359 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23772359 There's plenty of curious conversation there. There's also plenty of flamebait and flamewar, unfortunately, but that's unavoidable when the society at large is divided on a topic—or rather societies, since we have the added dimension of being a highly international community to deal with. The HN guidelines are written in such a way as to encourage the former and discourage the latter, but there are limits to what's achievable. HN's mandate comes from how it was created. It has its particular niche. I think it's a good niche that is worth preserving, and I'm pretty sure the bulk of the community agrees, since that's why people come here. In a way, I like that you're questioning it, though. If the argument becomes "HN should have a different mandate", this suggests that it's doing an ok job of fulfilling the existing one.