3 ms·

I wonder (with my limited knowledge on the exact nature of the language) why we still print 'ye' if the 'y' was a shorthand for 'th' and therefore it actually i

I wonder (with my limited knowledge on the exact nature of the language) why we still print 'ye' if the 'y' was a shorthand for 'th' and therefore it actually is pronounced 'the'. If we modify or modernise the other words in the poem, why keep 'the' spelled using 'ye'? As far as I can tell it only causes people the speak (or mentally read) the equivalent of 'yee'.

deleted 6y ago
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tlholaday 6y ago
In this instance, “ye” is the plural form of “thou.”
- oneplane 6y ago
  And (if I read the other responses correctly) thou is similar to 'you' in pronoun terms, right?
rgossiaux 6y ago
You're confusing two different things. Ye as a plural pronoun is a bone fide archaic English word, ultimately sharing an etymology with the still-extant "you". "Ye" as an article ("Ye olde...") has the history you reference, where the y comes from a stand-in for a thorn (th), and so was not supposed to be pronounced as "yee". But ye as a pronoun (by far the most common usage, I think, and the usage in the poem) is just a normal word and doesn't share that history.
- oneplane 6y ago
  Ah yes, the thorn was the one I was looking for. I remember reading something about that when looking up the reason old pub signs in England sometimes had the thorn and often 'ye' but are always actually supposed to be 'the' in technically correct form.
war1025 6y ago
Because even though the 'y' was originally a substitute for the thorn rune, it then passed into common language with the 'yee' pronunciation. Given that this poem was written in the 1800s, I would guess it's meant to be pronounced with the 'y' sound and not a 'th' sound.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> wonder (with my limited knowledge on the exact nature of the language) why we still print 'ye' if the 'y' was a shorthand for 'th' Where it is pronounced “the”, it wasn't really a shorthand for “th” it was a rendering of “þe”, because the cursive “þ” came to look like “y”. Because we don't use “ But, actually, in Ozymandias it's not that form, it's the pronoun, which was actually pronounced “ye” and spelled “ye”, an alternative form of “you”, not the article pronounced “the” and spelled “þe”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_(pronoun) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_(pronoun)
- oneplane 6y ago
  Coming from germanic languages where a lot of pronouns are available but only a very small subset is used today, the ye/thou pronoun context makes more sense now with that explanation.

deleted 6y ago

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tlholaday 6y ago

In this instance, “ye” is the plural form of “thou.”

oneplane 6y ago
And (if I read the other responses correctly) thou is similar to 'you' in pronoun terms, right?

rgossiaux 6y ago

You're confusing two different things. Ye as a plural pronoun is a bone fide archaic English word, ultimately sharing an etymology with the still-extant "you". "Ye" as an article ("Ye olde...") has the history you reference, where the y comes from a stand-in for a thorn (th), and so was not supposed to be pronounced as "yee". But ye as a pronoun (by far the most common usage, I think, and the usage in the poem) is just a normal word and doesn't share that history.

oneplane 6y ago
Ah yes, the thorn was the one I was looking for. I remember reading something about that when looking up the reason old pub signs in England sometimes had the thorn and often 'ye' but are always actually supposed to be 'the' in technically correct form.

war1025 6y ago

Because even though the 'y' was originally a substitute for the thorn rune, it then passed into common language with the 'yee' pronunciation. Given that this poem was written in the 1800s, I would guess it's meant to be pronounced with the 'y' sound and not a 'th' sound.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> wonder (with my limited knowledge on the exact nature of the language) why we still print 'ye' if the 'y' was a shorthand for 'th' Where it is pronounced “the”, it wasn't really a shorthand for “th” it was a rendering of “þe”, because the cursive “þ” came to look like “y”. Because we don't use “ But, actually, in Ozymandias it's not that form, it's the pronoun, which was actually pronounced “ye” and spelled “ye”, an alternative form of “you”, not the article pronounced “the” and spelled “þe”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_(pronoun) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_(pronoun)

oneplane 6y ago
Coming from germanic languages where a lot of pronouns are available but only a very small subset is used today, the ye/thou pronoun context makes more sense now with that explanation.