6 ms·

If you really believe that you're sensitive enough It's pretty obvious when using extended shortcuts or a string of keys that are committed to muscle memory, l

by kirse 6y ago

If you really believe that you're sensitive enough It's pretty obvious when using extended shortcuts or a string of keys that are committed to muscle memory, like Ctrl+Shift+P (+ first letter of a cmd) or Ctrl+K combos. Imagine playing an instrument wired up to headphones and then adding a 30-60 ms delay... the longer the delay the more it creates that "off" feeling Don't forget too, those are bare metal calculations. Stick those apps inside a VM like many devs do or add some other latency along the I/O chain and it all helps to create a perception of lag.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago
> Imagine playing an instrument wired up to headphones and then adding a 30ms delay We need to keep these numbers in context. 30ms delay would appear as an echo if you were playing an instrument and also listening to a 30ms delayed version of the same sound. However, you're not feeling the latency. You're noticing the presence of two distinct signals. That's why UX input latency matters much more when you're doing something like dragging across the screen with your finger on the screen: You visually register the distance between your finger and the expected location. However, when you're typing a memorized series of letters on a keyboard, you're not comparing the keypresses to the letters appearing on the screen. You already know what you're typing and what you expect to see on the screen. Visual stimulus latency is on the order of 250ms, so you wouldn't even begin to start processing types for an order of magnitude larger than the latency of these text editors, for example. Most of us are operating with regular 60Hz laptops or monitors. End-to-end latency from physical key press to physical color change on your monitor might be as high as 50-60ms even with zero-latency software.
- jcelerier 6y ago
  > However, when you're typing a memorized series of letters on a keyboard, you're not comparing the keypresses to the letters appearing on the screen. You already know what you're typing and what you expect to see on the screen. Visual stimulus latency is on the order of 250ms, so you wouldn't even begin to start processing types for an order of magnitude larger than the latency of these text editors, for example. nothing makes me want to throw my computer through the window faster than typing and not having an instant response honestly. It doesn't matter that the brain cannot process the letter. Would you imagine handwriting where the shape of the letters you write is 1/4th of letter shape late ? Even for typing, just comparing xterm at 60hz and 120hz on my monitor feels different when typing moderately fast (100 wpm according to https://typing-speed-test.aoeu.eu/?lang=en https://typing-speed-test.aoeu.eu/?lang=en)
- suyjuris 6y ago
  > However, you're not feeling the latency. You're noticing the presence of two distinct signals. Not necessarily; it could be an electronic instrument. I once tested a "e-piano -> midi -> PC -> headphones" chain. The latency was not really noticeable when I pressed only a single key, but actually playing was impossible. After I replaced a (software) component with something with lower latency, it was bearable. While I cannot precisely estimate the latency reduction, I would guess that it was less than 30ms.
drewnoakes 6y ago
The ear's whole function is to detect differences in patterns. This is how we identify the direction of sound with only two ears. For our ears, a delay of 30ms is an eternity. The eyes on the other hand have very little response to this. Some will say they can spot a 15ms vs 30ms visual delay easily, but this is an open debate rather than an obvious fact. A 15ms delay in audio is noticeable to almost anyone. Different senses, different sensitivities. Comparing them isn't very instructive.
- setzer22 6y ago
  Your 15/30ms is close to the timings of 30 vs a 60fps videogames. While testing for a single frame you'd probably get very mixed results, most people can distinguish the pattern of when the framerate drops from one to the other. That looks more close to me to the audio example, since it's a constant stream of visual information.
- CapsAdmin 6y ago
  I think this is actually more to do with timing than audio. I've made a jumping mechanism for a game that makes you move faster if you jump right when you hit the ground again. This system does not give any audible cues as to when you should jump. When something in this system is slightly off, ie keyboard latency, jump height, gravity, etc. You can't time the jumps properly and you're left feeling that you somehow just can't do it but can't really pinpoint what the problem is exactly. I think the same applies to many games. Especially fighting games. With that said, I don't think writing code is about timing. I think it's nice when an editor feels very responsive, but I don't think it necessarily makes me more productive.
haecceity 6y ago
That might be slow because of autocomplete list starting and not because of rendering.

by kirse 6y ago

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

> Imagine playing an instrument wired up to headphones and then adding a 30ms delay We need to keep these numbers in context. 30ms delay would appear as an echo if you were playing an instrument and also listening to a 30ms delayed version of the same sound. However, you're not feeling the latency. You're noticing the presence of two distinct signals. That's why UX input latency matters much more when you're doing something like dragging across the screen with your finger on the screen: You visually register the distance between your finger and the expected location. However, when you're typing a memorized series of letters on a keyboard, you're not comparing the keypresses to the letters appearing on the screen. You already know what you're typing and what you expect to see on the screen. Visual stimulus latency is on the order of 250ms, so you wouldn't even begin to start processing types for an order of magnitude larger than the latency of these text editors, for example. Most of us are operating with regular 60Hz laptops or monitors. End-to-end latency from physical key press to physical color change on your monitor might be as high as 50-60ms even with zero-latency software.

jcelerier 6y ago
> However, when you're typing a memorized series of letters on a keyboard, you're not comparing the keypresses to the letters appearing on the screen. You already know what you're typing and what you expect to see on the screen. Visual stimulus latency is on the order of 250ms, so you wouldn't even begin to start processing types for an order of magnitude larger than the latency of these text editors, for example. nothing makes me want to throw my computer through the window faster than typing and not having an instant response honestly. It doesn't matter that the brain cannot process the letter. Would you imagine handwriting where the shape of the letters you write is 1/4th of letter shape late ? Even for typing, just comparing xterm at 60hz and 120hz on my monitor feels different when typing moderately fast (100 wpm according to https://typing-speed-test.aoeu.eu/?lang=en https://typing-speed-test.aoeu.eu/?lang=en)
suyjuris 6y ago
> However, you're not feeling the latency. You're noticing the presence of two distinct signals. Not necessarily; it could be an electronic instrument. I once tested a "e-piano -> midi -> PC -> headphones" chain. The latency was not really noticeable when I pressed only a single key, but actually playing was impossible. After I replaced a (software) component with something with lower latency, it was bearable. While I cannot precisely estimate the latency reduction, I would guess that it was less than 30ms.

drewnoakes 6y ago

The ear's whole function is to detect differences in patterns. This is how we identify the direction of sound with only two ears. For our ears, a delay of 30ms is an eternity. The eyes on the other hand have very little response to this. Some will say they can spot a 15ms vs 30ms visual delay easily, but this is an open debate rather than an obvious fact. A 15ms delay in audio is noticeable to almost anyone. Different senses, different sensitivities. Comparing them isn't very instructive.

setzer22 6y ago
Your 15/30ms is close to the timings of 30 vs a 60fps videogames. While testing for a single frame you'd probably get very mixed results, most people can distinguish the pattern of when the framerate drops from one to the other. That looks more close to me to the audio example, since it's a constant stream of visual information.
CapsAdmin 6y ago
I think this is actually more to do with timing than audio. I've made a jumping mechanism for a game that makes you move faster if you jump right when you hit the ground again. This system does not give any audible cues as to when you should jump. When something in this system is slightly off, ie keyboard latency, jump height, gravity, etc. You can't time the jumps properly and you're left feeling that you somehow just can't do it but can't really pinpoint what the problem is exactly. I think the same applies to many games. Especially fighting games. With that said, I don't think writing code is about timing. I think it's nice when an editor feels very responsive, but I don't think it necessarily makes me more productive.

haecceity 6y ago

That might be slow because of autocomplete list starting and not because of rendering.