4 ms·

I'll stand by it, but I admit my argument is weaker than needed to match the rhetoric. I don't think the proposal directly bans suburbs, but I think it may tra

I'll stand by it, but I admit my argument is weaker than needed to match the rhetoric. I don't think the proposal directly bans suburbs, but I think it may transitively. I wouldn't expect there to be a single state that doesn't receive federal dollars for community development. And if the state receives any dollars at all, per this proposal they are required to move towards bans on "exclusionary zoning" aka "single family zoning." So if a state wants to ensure federal funds for communities and allow for single family zoned suburbs, there seems to be a conflict. Because I believe every state would be interested in doing both (subsidizing poorer communities and permitting suburban communities), it worries me greatly that this bill will effectively ban suburbs. I would absolutely remove my characterization of this bill as abolishing suburbs if the bill only applied to states that use federal funds to subsidize the creation of suburbs. I would still have a problem with it, but it would be very minor.

grandmczeb 6y ago
> I would absolutely remove my characterization of this bill as abolishing suburbs if the bill only applied to states that use federal funds to subsidize the creation of suburbs. That would be all of them. The federal government explicitly subsidized the creation of suburbs after WWII though FHA and VA insured loans (as in, this was their literal intended purpose). In some cases they even directly hired builders to construct suburban towns wholesale (e.g. Levittown and Daly City)[1]. You know, I find this conversation pretty ironic in the context of this thread. It's clear you haven't researched this issue at all but are willing to announce fairly strong opinions about it based on nothing more than an obvious mischaracterization by the president. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-02/how-the-federal-government-built-white-suburbia https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-02/how-the-f...
- bendbro 6y ago
  I realize all states do this, but your response does not address my intended point. That's my fault, I will improve my point. 1. My reading of the proposal, and the reason I dislike the proposal: if a state uses federal funds for any community development project, some forcing function will cause them to stop single family zoning. This jeopardizes single family zoning in all states, since it has tied funding to all community development spending rather than specifically to federal funds going to single family zoning. Even if a state stops directing federal funds to single family zoned communities, they are still encouraged to not create single family zoned communities. 2. A proposal I would be more comfortable with: if a state uses federal funds specifically to fund single family funded communities, they must move toward ending single family zoning. States can continue receiving federal funds as long as they don't spend them on single family zoned communities. [edit follows] > You know, I find this conversation pretty ironic in the context of this thread. It's clear you haven't researched this issue at all but are willing to announce fairly strong opinions about it based on nothing more than an obvious mischaracterization by the president. Disagree it is ironic, disagree it is clear I haven't researched it, but I agree I am shameless in announcing my strong opinions. Hopefully my clarification above gives you something clearer to bite into.
  - grandmczeb 6y ago
    > if a state uses federal funds for any community development project, some forcing function will cause them to stop single family zoning. This is specifically about two types of grants (not all federal funds for community development) and it does not require the elimination of single family zoning. > federal funds going to single family zoning What does it mean for funds to "go to" single family zoning? CDB grants are largely allocated to specific cites and counties already and the portion that is given to states is mostly spent on projects in urban areas[1]. > if a state uses federal funds specifically to fund single family funded communities, they must move toward ending single family zoning. States can continue receiving federal funds as long as they don't spend them on single family zoned communities. The actual proposal is weaker than your proposal since there is no requirement to move towards ending single family zoning. > Disagree it is ironic, disagree it is clear I haven't researched it The conversation has moved from "abolish suburbs" to "a proposal to require certain cites to make a plan to implement policies that reduce barriers to housing development". So either you were being disingenuous originally or hadn't researched the topic. It's also the exact sort of emotionally charged rhetoric you were decrying earlier. [1] https://www.hudexchange.info/programs/cdbg/cdbg-expenditure-reports/?&filter_year=&filter_state=&filter_grantee=&current_page=1 https://www.hudexchange.info/programs/cdbg/cdbg-expenditure-...
dragonwriter 6y ago
> And if the state receives any dollars at all, per this proposal they are required to move towards bans on "exclusionary zoning" No, they aren't required to “move toward bans” on anything. They are to move toward inclusive land use by some combination of zoning policy and other regulation. And it's only CDBG recipients that have to do this, which are often local governments. Rich suburbs probably aren't competing for CDBG grants in the first place, and wouldn't have to do anything. The specific examples in the act of policies which can meet the requirement, and many of the examples are consistent with single-family zoning.
- bendbro 6y ago
  That is comforting. I will research this. [Edit] the specific line from Biden's plan that included "states" which gave me the initial idea this policy applies to states rather than individual communities. "Biden will enact legislation requiring any state receiving federal dollars through the Community Development Block Grants or Surface Transportation Block Grants to develop a strategy for inclusionary zoning" I will continue researching nonetheless. It may just be misleading copy.

grandmczeb 6y ago

> I would absolutely remove my characterization of this bill as abolishing suburbs if the bill only applied to states that use federal funds to subsidize the creation of suburbs. That would be all of them. The federal government explicitly subsidized the creation of suburbs after WWII though FHA and VA insured loans (as in, this was their literal intended purpose). In some cases they even directly hired builders to construct suburban towns wholesale (e.g. Levittown and Daly City)[1]. You know, I find this conversation pretty ironic in the context of this thread. It's clear you haven't researched this issue at all but are willing to announce fairly strong opinions about it based on nothing more than an obvious mischaracterization by the president. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-02/how-the-federal-government-built-white-suburbia https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-02/how-the-f...

bendbro 6y ago
I realize all states do this, but your response does not address my intended point. That's my fault, I will improve my point. 1. My reading of the proposal, and the reason I dislike the proposal: if a state uses federal funds for any community development project, some forcing function will cause them to stop single family zoning. This jeopardizes single family zoning in all states, since it has tied funding to all community development spending rather than specifically to federal funds going to single family zoning. Even if a state stops directing federal funds to single family zoned communities, they are still encouraged to not create single family zoned communities. 2. A proposal I would be more comfortable with: if a state uses federal funds specifically to fund single family funded communities, they must move toward ending single family zoning. States can continue receiving federal funds as long as they don't spend them on single family zoned communities. [edit follows] > You know, I find this conversation pretty ironic in the context of this thread. It's clear you haven't researched this issue at all but are willing to announce fairly strong opinions about it based on nothing more than an obvious mischaracterization by the president. Disagree it is ironic, disagree it is clear I haven't researched it, but I agree I am shameless in announcing my strong opinions. Hopefully my clarification above gives you something clearer to bite into.
- grandmczeb 6y ago
  > if a state uses federal funds for any community development project, some forcing function will cause them to stop single family zoning. This is specifically about two types of grants (not all federal funds for community development) and it does not require the elimination of single family zoning. > federal funds going to single family zoning What does it mean for funds to "go to" single family zoning? CDB grants are largely allocated to specific cites and counties already and the portion that is given to states is mostly spent on projects in urban areas[1]. > if a state uses federal funds specifically to fund single family funded communities, they must move toward ending single family zoning. States can continue receiving federal funds as long as they don't spend them on single family zoned communities. The actual proposal is weaker than your proposal since there is no requirement to move towards ending single family zoning. > Disagree it is ironic, disagree it is clear I haven't researched it The conversation has moved from "abolish suburbs" to "a proposal to require certain cites to make a plan to implement policies that reduce barriers to housing development". So either you were being disingenuous originally or hadn't researched the topic. It's also the exact sort of emotionally charged rhetoric you were decrying earlier. [1] https://www.hudexchange.info/programs/cdbg/cdbg-expenditure-reports/?&filter_year=&filter_state=&filter_grantee=&current_page=1 https://www.hudexchange.info/programs/cdbg/cdbg-expenditure-...

dragonwriter 6y ago

> And if the state receives any dollars at all, per this proposal they are required to move towards bans on "exclusionary zoning" No, they aren't required to “move toward bans” on anything. They are to move toward inclusive land use by some combination of zoning policy and other regulation. And it's only CDBG recipients that have to do this, which are often local governments. Rich suburbs probably aren't competing for CDBG grants in the first place, and wouldn't have to do anything. The specific examples in the act of policies which can meet the requirement, and many of the examples are consistent with single-family zoning.

bendbro 6y ago
That is comforting. I will research this. [Edit] the specific line from Biden's plan that included "states" which gave me the initial idea this policy applies to states rather than individual communities. "Biden will enact legislation requiring any state receiving federal dollars through the Community Development Block Grants or Surface Transportation Block Grants to develop a strategy for inclusionary zoning" I will continue researching nonetheless. It may just be misleading copy.