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Exactly. And winning a war isn't about feeding your soldiers, but you can't win the war without good mess hall sergeants. One loud, misbehaving student can rui

Exactly. And winning a war isn't about feeding your soldiers, but you can't win the war without good mess hall sergeants. One loud, misbehaving student can ruin the class for the other n-1. Idealists want to dream that there are no bad kids and it's all the fault of the patriarchy, white supremacy or worse. They may be correct, but work won't commence until everyone is sitting still.

nickff 6y ago
The problem with applying your priorities (for the idealists) is that the misbehaving kids tend to come from the 'victimized' groups. This means that by enforcing clasroom discipline, they (often) feel that they are reinforcing the patriarchy, white supremacy, or other evil side.
- catalogia 6y ago
  Suppose a child disrupts class for 30 of his peers because his dad beats him. His dad has now effectively victimized 31 kids. Wouldn't it be productive and moral to find ways to help all 31, perhaps by putting misbehaving kids in special classrooms where they can receive specialized help?
  - danielheath 6y ago
    Assuming the specialised help isn’t just worse facilities somewhere else, maybe (or maybe not). In practice - who is going to ensure the other facilities are of a good standard? The abusive parents? If you don’t help that kid, the other 30 will spend their whole lives sharing a society with an adult who didn’t get help. That’s an unfair drain on their life too (increased crime, policing costs, etc). Putting the disruptive kids in the same place as everyone else means the incentives are right to do something useful to help them.
    - catalogia 6y ago
      One of my aunts is a such a specialized teacher; her program is called "emotional support" or something to that effect. From what I understand it's a classroom in the same school building and the students sent to her classroom are troubled in frequently very sad ways which she won't discuss in specifics. She's accountable to the same principle that the normal teachers are. From what I know of this sort of program, it seems to be a sincere attempt to help kids, not merely brush them off into a corner to forget about them. I don't know how often it's successful, but I think in that school district at least it's well motivated. From what I know of it, it seems like a much better system than allowing those kids to disrupt normal classrooms.
      - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
        That’s good work your aunt is doing. Necessary work indeed, but unfortunately not academic work. For these students who are deeply troubled, there must be healing before there can really be learning.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - chongli 6y ago
    It would take one hell of a teacher to handle a full class of misbehaving students. I think most teachers would pass on that opportunity.
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    First let's hire another teacher and cut that class size down!
  - lifeisstillgood 6y ago
    This is still behaviour management, but not entirely in the schools circle. Society as a whole needs to help manage the behaviour - we manage the dads behaviour by arresting him, manage the rest of the family through in person support and finally worry about the school.
- dataduck 6y ago
  That's because it's the same thing. Creating the level of order necessary for learning (or any other civilized behaviour) is the entirety of what "Patriarchy" really means. White supremacy recently got redefined to include things like punctuality and objectivity, which is even more on the nose.
  - jkoudys 6y ago
    I won't dispute that "patriarchy" (or even white supremecy) are forms of order, but they're order built by forcing roles on people based on gender and race. Anyone wrapping punctuality up into that is enforcing such a system by assigning someone's station based on race, not fighting against it.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    Is this sarcasm? Being punctual or object is now racist?
    - hevelvarik 6y ago
      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the-sun.com/news/1149007/african-american-museum-whiteness-chart-protestant-values/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the-sun.com/news/1149007/af...
      - giantg2 6y ago
        Wow how racist is that.

nickff 6y ago

The problem with applying your priorities (for the idealists) is that the misbehaving kids tend to come from the 'victimized' groups. This means that by enforcing clasroom discipline, they (often) feel that they are reinforcing the patriarchy, white supremacy, or other evil side.

catalogia 6y ago
Suppose a child disrupts class for 30 of his peers because his dad beats him. His dad has now effectively victimized 31 kids. Wouldn't it be productive and moral to find ways to help all 31, perhaps by putting misbehaving kids in special classrooms where they can receive specialized help?
- danielheath 6y ago
  Assuming the specialised help isn’t just worse facilities somewhere else, maybe (or maybe not). In practice - who is going to ensure the other facilities are of a good standard? The abusive parents? If you don’t help that kid, the other 30 will spend their whole lives sharing a society with an adult who didn’t get help. That’s an unfair drain on their life too (increased crime, policing costs, etc). Putting the disruptive kids in the same place as everyone else means the incentives are right to do something useful to help them.
  - catalogia 6y ago
    One of my aunts is a such a specialized teacher; her program is called "emotional support" or something to that effect. From what I understand it's a classroom in the same school building and the students sent to her classroom are troubled in frequently very sad ways which she won't discuss in specifics. She's accountable to the same principle that the normal teachers are. From what I know of this sort of program, it seems to be a sincere attempt to help kids, not merely brush them off into a corner to forget about them. I don't know how often it's successful, but I think in that school district at least it's well motivated. From what I know of it, it seems like a much better system than allowing those kids to disrupt normal classrooms.
    - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
      That’s good work your aunt is doing. Necessary work indeed, but unfortunately not academic work. For these students who are deeply troubled, there must be healing before there can really be learning.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- chongli 6y ago
  It would take one hell of a teacher to handle a full class of misbehaving students. I think most teachers would pass on that opportunity.
- jessaustin 6y ago
  First let's hire another teacher and cut that class size down!
- lifeisstillgood 6y ago
  This is still behaviour management, but not entirely in the schools circle. Society as a whole needs to help manage the behaviour - we manage the dads behaviour by arresting him, manage the rest of the family through in person support and finally worry about the school.
dataduck 6y ago
That's because it's the same thing. Creating the level of order necessary for learning (or any other civilized behaviour) is the entirety of what "Patriarchy" really means. White supremacy recently got redefined to include things like punctuality and objectivity, which is even more on the nose.
- jkoudys 6y ago
  I won't dispute that "patriarchy" (or even white supremecy) are forms of order, but they're order built by forcing roles on people based on gender and race. Anyone wrapping punctuality up into that is enforcing such a system by assigning someone's station based on race, not fighting against it.
- giantg2 6y ago
  Is this sarcasm? Being punctual or object is now racist?
  - hevelvarik 6y ago
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the-sun.com/news/1149007/african-american-museum-whiteness-chart-protestant-values/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the-sun.com/news/1149007/af...
    - giantg2 6y ago
      Wow how racist is that.