5 ms·

Looking at this: "Dancing compared to conventional fitness activity led to larger volume increases in more brain areas, including the cingulate cortex, insula,

by hannob 6y ago

Looking at this: "Dancing compared to conventional fitness activity led to larger volume increases in more brain areas, including the cingulate cortex, insula, corpus callosum and sensorimotor cortex. Only dancing was associated with an increase in plasma BDNF levels. Regarding cognition, both groups improved in attention and spatial memory, but no significant group differences emerged. The latter finding may indicate that cognitive benefits may develop later and after structural brain changes have taken place." May I translate: They saw improvements in things they could easily measure. They hope this translate into improved cognitive ability. But it actually didn't. But they still hope it'll do that later. (FWIW: I'm an active Lindy Hop dancer - ok, I have been before covid... - I love dancing and I am really looking forward to when I can visit dance festivals again.)

MagnumPIG 6y ago
No wonder science journalism has a hard time keeping to the facts, even with direct access to the paper we're upvoting and misunderstanding a paper of trivial significance...
cosmojg 6y ago
Whereabouts are you? Are there any festivals you'd recommend in particular?
- virtue3 6y ago
  Lindy Hop? In the states the biggies are: Camp Hollywood (lotta pool time, lotta drinking) Lindy Focus (christmas -> new years, it's nuts) Nevermore (my personal favorite) Camp Jitterbug (used to be super relevent as the contest weekend event, sorta on the decline/ not sure) Lindyfest has some nice peeps at it Camp the biggest is Herrang in sweden, it's the lindy hop mecca trip. Also check out: https://www.swingplanit.com/ https://www.swingplanit.com/
  - saryant 6y ago
    I would not recommend a beginner start at Camp Hollywood. It’s a bit intense. Lindy on the Rocks in Denver is usually pretty good. There’s a huge swing dance community in the Front Range.
    - virtue3 6y ago
      I respectfully disagree. They have a ton of beginner classes and a lot of opportunity to be exposed to contests and good live music. Yeah the party scene is a bit nuts but you don't have to be a part of that.
xdavidliu 6y ago
> The latter finding may indicate that cognitive benefits may develop later and after structural brain changes have taken place." I'm confused by this part. How does the "latter finding" indicate that benefits may develop later? The "latter finding" is that there hasn't been any benefits yet. Does that suggest anything whatsoever about what will happen later?
- sacred_numbers 6y ago
  If something hasn't happened yet it indicates that if it does happen it will happen later. For example, since pigs haven't flown yet, if they do fly, it will have to be later. Seriously, though, I think the researchers were trying to put a positive spin on a negative result but went too far.
- robbrown451 6y ago
  I suspect they meant the former finding, i.e.: "volume increases in more brain areas, including the cingulate cortex, insula, corpus callosum and sensorimotor cortex"
  - xdavidliu 6y ago
    That still doesn't make sense. They take it is a forgone conclusion that volume increases will _eventually_ result in cognitive benefits, but provide no evidence or sources to support that notion. Of course, it seems to intuitively make sense that "bigger brain means smarter", but in a science article I would imagine they would be more rigorous about substantiating things.
dumb1224 6y ago
Fellow lindy hopper here too. Yes the communities around the world have been hit hard. Social dancing is unfortunately an ideal setup for the virus to spread. I share your hope and look forward to dancing again.
acituan 6y ago
> May I translate: They saw improvements in things they could easily measure. They hope this translate into improved cognitive ability. But it actually didn't. But they still hope it'll do that later. I find your translation misleading. They did see improved cognitive ability, just not superior to the conventional fitness program at the time of measuring. Increased BDNF, which stands for brain-derived neurotrophic factor, is actually pretty significant so they are not pulling potential future development from thin air. Mind you the sample population is the elderly, for which the prospect of neural growth/protection is pretty important, and this might have further applications to other populations such as recovering alcoholics, methamphetamine users, and even depression/anxiety sufferers where hippocampal volume decrease is indicated.
- swayson 6y ago
  Always amazed on how dancing and music can lift ones mood :)
- smartbit 6y ago
  In the Sports Group SG ‘We avoided combined arm and leg movements in order to keep coordinative demands low.’
dnquark 6y ago
My first dance teacher used to refer to a similar study from 10 years ago in NEJM (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa022252); https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa022252); his commentary is at https://socialdance.stanford.edu/syllabi/smarter.htm https://socialdance.stanford.edu/syllabi/smarter.htm But yeah, getting into lindy hop 15 years ago was literally the best thing that ever happened to me. It's incredible, being able to go to any major city on the planet and instantly finding a community.
- dmd 6y ago
  Similarly, contradance (though that's much more limited to the US).
  - onemoresoop 6y ago
    What is contradance? Do you have any experience you’d like to share?
    - madhadron 6y ago
      The English country dance tradition in the USA evolved into contradance (corruption of "country dance"). It diverged in the 18th century when English country dances were almost entirely longways dances, so there are only a few squares formations left, almost vestigial. Then in English the whole explosion when the quadrille arrived from France and began hybridizing with English country dance happened, and then the waltz... Meanwhile in the USA, contradance continued on without that influence. Though they later picked up the waltz, and a contradance today conventionally ends each half of the dance with a waltz, the first of which you conventionally dance with someone not your significant other and the second you dance with your significant other if you have one. Contradance is where I tend to start totally new dancers. The community tends to be extremely welcoming. Most dances have an expectation that experienced dancers will spend at least part of the evening dancing with newcomers and trying to get them up to speed and comfortable. Once they've got the sense of weight and motion, then you can drag them off to swing, ballroom, or whatever else, but it really is an incredibly effective setting for instilling some fundamentals and confidence. It's also interesting because you can go from Virginia to Washington state and walk into a contradance and wonder if you traveled at all.
nelaboras 6y ago
Someone else already pointed out that this is actually quite significant, just the time might have been too short but there is clear indication something is there. For me the key question is: what is the key ingredient (or the right mix of ingredients)? E.g. is it having a programme to follow (having aims/duties is known to increase longevity, see the famous 'plant study')? Or rhythmic fluid movements (so like tai chi or qi gong or yoga)? Or the combination with music (multimodal stimulation)? Or the social component of dancing (so e.g. encouraging proximity like mutual hair brushing, engagement that encourages touch, etc)? Fascinating and raises many new questions. But it's clear the most deadly thing is probably inactivity.
- mudita 6y ago
  The authors of the studies seem to believe that the "combination of physical activity and sensory enrichment" and “cognitive and coordinative demands” are the key ingredients. If this is the case then the results should also generalise to sports, which have an aspect of sensory enrichment and coordinative challenge. But I agree with you, it would be very interesting to actually find out what the “key ingredients” are. Especially since dance is so diverse and difficult to define. In fact, I think the category of dance can be best described using Wittgenstein's concept of family resemblance. There is not one essential common feature between all forms of dance, instead there are a lot of overlapping aspects.
  - goldfeld 6y ago
    It's only different for sports because all the coordinating (like of old the activites of hunting and war) applies to a single focus, the body is all maneouvered to the same mind state. In dance, you have to coordinate subtle muscles in precise ways. In sports, the precision is about the particular result you want (a stroke, a kick), but in dance, there are many goals and you need to mind whether your thigh muscle is holding up in just the proper, beautiful way, because the teacher and a knowing audience can tell, much like in musical performances, whether you are really achieving the coordination or faking, or being a beginner. The coordination in dance is of several (and I mean tens of body parts or muscles at the same time) parts having different purposes (supporting the movement, getting balance, showing off, giving impulse, etc) and the brain having to watch them all, all at once. It's much harder to dance beautifully than to swim or run or jump and throw a basketball beautifully, because in dance aesthetics is the primary source of goals for all those body parts, they have different roles or different relationships to the same melodies and harmonies playing over the dance.
el_oni 6y ago
I danced latin and ballroom during my masters and first two years of PhD. I never knew i would have that level of coordination. Then I danced salsa and butchata when I moved university and it made me much more sociable. Whether or not its translated to cognitive ability, I'll never know. But it has translated to confidence and sociability, and it's a great way to get out if my own head and have fun.

by hannob 6y ago

MagnumPIG 6y ago

No wonder science journalism has a hard time keeping to the facts, even with direct access to the paper we're upvoting and misunderstanding a paper of trivial significance...

cosmojg 6y ago

Whereabouts are you? Are there any festivals you'd recommend in particular?

virtue3 6y ago
Lindy Hop? In the states the biggies are: Camp Hollywood (lotta pool time, lotta drinking) Lindy Focus (christmas -> new years, it's nuts) Nevermore (my personal favorite) Camp Jitterbug (used to be super relevent as the contest weekend event, sorta on the decline/ not sure) Lindyfest has some nice peeps at it Camp the biggest is Herrang in sweden, it's the lindy hop mecca trip. Also check out: https://www.swingplanit.com/ https://www.swingplanit.com/
- saryant 6y ago
  I would not recommend a beginner start at Camp Hollywood. It’s a bit intense. Lindy on the Rocks in Denver is usually pretty good. There’s a huge swing dance community in the Front Range.
  - virtue3 6y ago
    I respectfully disagree. They have a ton of beginner classes and a lot of opportunity to be exposed to contests and good live music. Yeah the party scene is a bit nuts but you don't have to be a part of that.

xdavidliu 6y ago

> The latter finding may indicate that cognitive benefits may develop later and after structural brain changes have taken place." I'm confused by this part. How does the "latter finding" indicate that benefits may develop later? The "latter finding" is that there hasn't been any benefits yet. Does that suggest anything whatsoever about what will happen later?

sacred_numbers 6y ago
If something hasn't happened yet it indicates that if it does happen it will happen later. For example, since pigs haven't flown yet, if they do fly, it will have to be later. Seriously, though, I think the researchers were trying to put a positive spin on a negative result but went too far.
robbrown451 6y ago
I suspect they meant the former finding, i.e.: "volume increases in more brain areas, including the cingulate cortex, insula, corpus callosum and sensorimotor cortex"
- xdavidliu 6y ago
  That still doesn't make sense. They take it is a forgone conclusion that volume increases will _eventually_ result in cognitive benefits, but provide no evidence or sources to support that notion. Of course, it seems to intuitively make sense that "bigger brain means smarter", but in a science article I would imagine they would be more rigorous about substantiating things.

dumb1224 6y ago

Fellow lindy hopper here too. Yes the communities around the world have been hit hard. Social dancing is unfortunately an ideal setup for the virus to spread. I share your hope and look forward to dancing again.

acituan 6y ago

> May I translate: They saw improvements in things they could easily measure. They hope this translate into improved cognitive ability. But it actually didn't. But they still hope it'll do that later. I find your translation misleading. They did see improved cognitive ability, just not superior to the conventional fitness program at the time of measuring. Increased BDNF, which stands for brain-derived neurotrophic factor, is actually pretty significant so they are not pulling potential future development from thin air. Mind you the sample population is the elderly, for which the prospect of neural growth/protection is pretty important, and this might have further applications to other populations such as recovering alcoholics, methamphetamine users, and even depression/anxiety sufferers where hippocampal volume decrease is indicated.

swayson 6y ago
Always amazed on how dancing and music can lift ones mood :)
smartbit 6y ago
In the Sports Group SG ‘We avoided combined arm and leg movements in order to keep coordinative demands low.’

dnquark 6y ago

My first dance teacher used to refer to a similar study from 10 years ago in NEJM (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa022252); https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa022252); his commentary is at https://socialdance.stanford.edu/syllabi/smarter.htm https://socialdance.stanford.edu/syllabi/smarter.htm But yeah, getting into lindy hop 15 years ago was literally the best thing that ever happened to me. It's incredible, being able to go to any major city on the planet and instantly finding a community.

dmd 6y ago
Similarly, contradance (though that's much more limited to the US).
- onemoresoop 6y ago
  What is contradance? Do you have any experience you’d like to share?
  - madhadron 6y ago
    The English country dance tradition in the USA evolved into contradance (corruption of "country dance"). It diverged in the 18th century when English country dances were almost entirely longways dances, so there are only a few squares formations left, almost vestigial. Then in English the whole explosion when the quadrille arrived from France and began hybridizing with English country dance happened, and then the waltz... Meanwhile in the USA, contradance continued on without that influence. Though they later picked up the waltz, and a contradance today conventionally ends each half of the dance with a waltz, the first of which you conventionally dance with someone not your significant other and the second you dance with your significant other if you have one. Contradance is where I tend to start totally new dancers. The community tends to be extremely welcoming. Most dances have an expectation that experienced dancers will spend at least part of the evening dancing with newcomers and trying to get them up to speed and comfortable. Once they've got the sense of weight and motion, then you can drag them off to swing, ballroom, or whatever else, but it really is an incredibly effective setting for instilling some fundamentals and confidence. It's also interesting because you can go from Virginia to Washington state and walk into a contradance and wonder if you traveled at all.

nelaboras 6y ago

Someone else already pointed out that this is actually quite significant, just the time might have been too short but there is clear indication something is there. For me the key question is: what is the key ingredient (or the right mix of ingredients)? E.g. is it having a programme to follow (having aims/duties is known to increase longevity, see the famous 'plant study')? Or rhythmic fluid movements (so like tai chi or qi gong or yoga)? Or the combination with music (multimodal stimulation)? Or the social component of dancing (so e.g. encouraging proximity like mutual hair brushing, engagement that encourages touch, etc)? Fascinating and raises many new questions. But it's clear the most deadly thing is probably inactivity.

mudita 6y ago
The authors of the studies seem to believe that the "combination of physical activity and sensory enrichment" and “cognitive and coordinative demands” are the key ingredients. If this is the case then the results should also generalise to sports, which have an aspect of sensory enrichment and coordinative challenge. But I agree with you, it would be very interesting to actually find out what the “key ingredients” are. Especially since dance is so diverse and difficult to define. In fact, I think the category of dance can be best described using Wittgenstein's concept of family resemblance. There is not one essential common feature between all forms of dance, instead there are a lot of overlapping aspects.
- goldfeld 6y ago
  It's only different for sports because all the coordinating (like of old the activites of hunting and war) applies to a single focus, the body is all maneouvered to the same mind state. In dance, you have to coordinate subtle muscles in precise ways. In sports, the precision is about the particular result you want (a stroke, a kick), but in dance, there are many goals and you need to mind whether your thigh muscle is holding up in just the proper, beautiful way, because the teacher and a knowing audience can tell, much like in musical performances, whether you are really achieving the coordination or faking, or being a beginner. The coordination in dance is of several (and I mean tens of body parts or muscles at the same time) parts having different purposes (supporting the movement, getting balance, showing off, giving impulse, etc) and the brain having to watch them all, all at once. It's much harder to dance beautifully than to swim or run or jump and throw a basketball beautifully, because in dance aesthetics is the primary source of goals for all those body parts, they have different roles or different relationships to the same melodies and harmonies playing over the dance.

el_oni 6y ago

I danced latin and ballroom during my masters and first two years of PhD. I never knew i would have that level of coordination. Then I danced salsa and butchata when I moved university and it made me much more sociable. Whether or not its translated to cognitive ability, I'll never know. But it has translated to confidence and sociability, and it's a great way to get out if my own head and have fun.