4 ms·

Of course, other approaches are available. For example where I live in the UK, what we've done is defund youth services by about 80% over the last ten years due

by thom 6y ago

Of course, other approaches are available. For example where I live in the UK, what we've done is defund youth services by about 80% over the last ten years due to austerity, leading to increases in gang membership and knife crime. We've then blamed this almost entirely on immigrants, which has in turn led to us voting to demolish whatever's left of our economy once the pandemic has had its way with us.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
You left out the part where pensioners continue to vote for and support these cannibalistic policies.
- pydry 6y ago
  A favor the government returned by sending covid-infected elderly back to care homes to prep the hospitals and causing an avalanche of care home deaths... Not that it changed their views.
chroem- 6y ago
As someone in the US, it's amusing to hear the phrase "knife crime" as a major source of violence.
- EL_Loco 6y ago
  As someone in Brazil, it's equally amusing to me. And I know gun control is not a simple matter, and is not a magical solution, but man... this administration is going in the direction of not only less control, but less responsability (making it even harder than it already is to trace ammunition, for example)
- ransom1538 6y ago
  I remember watching a British police reality show and they found a bb gun in a persons home. The police, so unfamiliar with firearms, thought it was real and couldn't figure out how to "unload the rounds". Soon, they brought in an officer from their version of SWAT that quickly laughed it off.
  - pyuser583 6y ago
    Had a Russian friend who was horrified I called them “BB guns.” He insisted they are “pneumatic rifles” and treated them the same as any other firearm.
    - zipwitch 6y ago
      The Girardoni air rifle was used in military service from the late 18th through early 19th centuries, and saw civilian use for some time after that. It was a very high-tech weapon for the time, and while finicky and expensive offered some unique advantages and was quite deadly. The Lewis & Clark expedition famously used a couple. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girardoni_air_rifle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girardoni_air_rifle
      - ransom1538 6y ago
        I really wanted to stop and say thank you. This was amazing find. I really am a nerd in this subject but had no idea compressed air was used in the 18th century. This really changed my thinking and historical perspective. You blew my Sunday that I will forgive. I will blow all next weekend trying to figure out why compressed air didn't catch on wtf. From my (limited!!) research the valves were super expensive and took an amazing amount of craftsmanship - which didn't allow for mass production (eg Brown Bess).
    - inetknght 6y ago
      The pneumatic description can be accurate. But I'm not aware of a BB gun with rifling. My understanding is that BBs, being spherical, don't work well with rifling.
    - jdeibele 6y ago
      There seem to be two types of air rifles in the US: BB guns, which shoot BBs, and pellet guns, which are rifled and shoot a pellet that look more like a bullet. There are all kinds of variants, including BB guns that are fully automatic. https://www.airgundepot.com/automatic-bb-guns.html https://www.airgundepot.com/automatic-bb-guns.html Air rifles 200 years ago were so effective (quiet, 30 round magazine) that Napoleon supposedly ordered that anyone carrying one be summarily executed. https://notorc.blogspot.com/2006/08/short-history-of-air-rifle_29.html https://notorc.blogspot.com/2006/08/short-history-of-air-rif... It was common in the US to do "plinking" with a BB gun at various targets, including windows of abandoned buildings, tin cans, and the unfortunate small animal. Probably still is in more rural areas. Anyway, different tradition than a weapon of war.
- candiodari 6y ago
  Not that I don't agree that the US has a major gun problem, but knives are much more deadly than guns.
  - Shared404 6y ago
    I personally would rather get shot then stabbed.
- dang 6y ago
  "Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - chroem- 6y ago
    I understand where you're coming from, but thus far my post does not seem to be generating a lot of controversy.
    - dang 6y ago
      There's variance, but the general effect is predictable, and that's what we have to moderate for. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20%22expected%20value%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
      - chroem- 6y ago
        Dang, I thought we had discussed this: moderating based the mere risk of controversy is how echo chambers form. Doesn't this go against HN's guidelines of fostering interesting, civil discussion?
        dang 6y ago
        The high-order bit is predictability. Going from "knife crime" to "guns in the U.S." is a highly predictable move, guaranteed (in the general case) to lead to tedious, repetitive discussion. The art of interesting threads requires learning to abstain from reflexive, predictable moves. That's one of the biggest things we've learned in over a decade of operating this place. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20curiosity%20repetition&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20discussion&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20reflective%20reflex&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
interfixus 6y ago
> leading to increases in gang membership and knife crime Much obliged if you would provide a citation for this claimed causation.
- thom 6y ago
  I will try but you may not be convinced. Certainly there's a broad evidence base justifying primary prevention approaches, from the WHO [0] and perhaps at least the references in [1], and in the BMJ [2]. It feels slightly pedantic to have to then prove that taking these types of intervention _away_, or at least reducing them, would therefore lead to a rise in the rate of violence, but it'd be valid to demand that. Perhaps this report [3] from a more local perspective might help paint that picture better. Many millions of pounds have been taken out of the council's budget. This has impacted youth, mental health, and alcohol/drug services. Changes at the national level have also effected the benefits landscape for many families in poverty. There is quite plainly less help and stability for communities most plagued by violence. My wife works in and around child and adolescent mental health services and she and her colleagues clearly perceive the link, but I also hope it's evident from a systems thinking perspective: there is a pipeline from childhood poverty and trauma into more chaotic and violent behaviours. Anything that interrupts that pipeline is good, and taking that away is probably bad. Sure, it's an option to wait at the end, increase stop and search and just arrest everybody but that's not a particularly great public health outcome either, and perhaps there are lessons from America in diverting funds from everywhere else just to prop up police departments. 0: https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/326377/9789289002028-eng.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/326377/9789... 1: https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/inspire-seven-strategies-for-ending-violence-against-children https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/inspire-seven-strate... 2: https://www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k1967 https://www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k1967 3: https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/media/6787/download https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/media/6787/download

by thom 6y ago

toomuchtodo 6y ago

You left out the part where pensioners continue to vote for and support these cannibalistic policies.

pydry 6y ago
A favor the government returned by sending covid-infected elderly back to care homes to prep the hospitals and causing an avalanche of care home deaths... Not that it changed their views.

chroem- 6y ago

As someone in the US, it's amusing to hear the phrase "knife crime" as a major source of violence.

EL_Loco 6y ago
As someone in Brazil, it's equally amusing to me. And I know gun control is not a simple matter, and is not a magical solution, but man... this administration is going in the direction of not only less control, but less responsability (making it even harder than it already is to trace ammunition, for example)
ransom1538 6y ago
I remember watching a British police reality show and they found a bb gun in a persons home. The police, so unfamiliar with firearms, thought it was real and couldn't figure out how to "unload the rounds". Soon, they brought in an officer from their version of SWAT that quickly laughed it off.
- pyuser583 6y ago
  Had a Russian friend who was horrified I called them “BB guns.” He insisted they are “pneumatic rifles” and treated them the same as any other firearm.
  - zipwitch 6y ago
    The Girardoni air rifle was used in military service from the late 18th through early 19th centuries, and saw civilian use for some time after that. It was a very high-tech weapon for the time, and while finicky and expensive offered some unique advantages and was quite deadly. The Lewis & Clark expedition famously used a couple. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girardoni_air_rifle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girardoni_air_rifle
    - ransom1538 6y ago
      I really wanted to stop and say thank you. This was amazing find. I really am a nerd in this subject but had no idea compressed air was used in the 18th century. This really changed my thinking and historical perspective. You blew my Sunday that I will forgive. I will blow all next weekend trying to figure out why compressed air didn't catch on wtf. From my (limited!!) research the valves were super expensive and took an amazing amount of craftsmanship - which didn't allow for mass production (eg Brown Bess).
  - inetknght 6y ago
    The pneumatic description can be accurate. But I'm not aware of a BB gun with rifling. My understanding is that BBs, being spherical, don't work well with rifling.
  - jdeibele 6y ago
    There seem to be two types of air rifles in the US: BB guns, which shoot BBs, and pellet guns, which are rifled and shoot a pellet that look more like a bullet. There are all kinds of variants, including BB guns that are fully automatic. https://www.airgundepot.com/automatic-bb-guns.html https://www.airgundepot.com/automatic-bb-guns.html Air rifles 200 years ago were so effective (quiet, 30 round magazine) that Napoleon supposedly ordered that anyone carrying one be summarily executed. https://notorc.blogspot.com/2006/08/short-history-of-air-rifle_29.html https://notorc.blogspot.com/2006/08/short-history-of-air-rif... It was common in the US to do "plinking" with a BB gun at various targets, including windows of abandoned buildings, tin cans, and the unfortunate small animal. Probably still is in more rural areas. Anyway, different tradition than a weapon of war.
candiodari 6y ago
Not that I don't agree that the US has a major gun problem, but knives are much more deadly than guns.
- Shared404 6y ago
  I personally would rather get shot then stabbed.
dang 6y ago
"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- chroem- 6y ago
  I understand where you're coming from, but thus far my post does not seem to be generating a lot of controversy.
  - dang 6y ago
    There's variance, but the general effect is predictable, and that's what we have to moderate for. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20%22expected%20value%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
    - chroem- 6y ago
      Dang, I thought we had discussed this: moderating based the mere risk of controversy is how echo chambers form. Doesn't this go against HN's guidelines of fostering interesting, civil discussion?
      - dang 6y ago
        The high-order bit is predictability. Going from "knife crime" to "guns in the U.S." is a highly predictable move, guaranteed (in the general case) to lead to tedious, repetitive discussion. The art of interesting threads requires learning to abstain from reflexive, predictable moves. That's one of the biggest things we've learned in over a decade of operating this place. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20curiosity%20repetition&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20discussion&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20reflective%20reflex&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

interfixus 6y ago

> leading to increases in gang membership and knife crime Much obliged if you would provide a citation for this claimed causation.

thom 6y ago
I will try but you may not be convinced. Certainly there's a broad evidence base justifying primary prevention approaches, from the WHO [0] and perhaps at least the references in [1], and in the BMJ [2]. It feels slightly pedantic to have to then prove that taking these types of intervention _away_, or at least reducing them, would therefore lead to a rise in the rate of violence, but it'd be valid to demand that. Perhaps this report [3] from a more local perspective might help paint that picture better. Many millions of pounds have been taken out of the council's budget. This has impacted youth, mental health, and alcohol/drug services. Changes at the national level have also effected the benefits landscape for many families in poverty. There is quite plainly less help and stability for communities most plagued by violence. My wife works in and around child and adolescent mental health services and she and her colleagues clearly perceive the link, but I also hope it's evident from a systems thinking perspective: there is a pipeline from childhood poverty and trauma into more chaotic and violent behaviours. Anything that interrupts that pipeline is good, and taking that away is probably bad. Sure, it's an option to wait at the end, increase stop and search and just arrest everybody but that's not a particularly great public health outcome either, and perhaps there are lessons from America in diverting funds from everywhere else just to prop up police departments. 0: https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/326377/9789289002028-eng.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/326377/9789... 1: https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/inspire-seven-strategies-for-ending-violence-against-children https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/inspire-seven-strate... 2: https://www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k1967 https://www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k1967 3: https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/media/6787/download https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/media/6787/download