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Because we believe it is the way to maximize individual happiness and that individuals are inherently valuable. To take an individual’s liberty is to violate so

by entee 6y ago

Because we believe it is the way to maximize individual happiness and that individuals are inherently valuable. To take an individual’s liberty is to violate something sacred that the person has just by being alive. You have to have a very strong justification, with a high bar. This does come with tradeoffs, but I don’t think the masks and beach are part of that tradeoff. People can and will voluntarily take on inconvenience for the good of others, but they have to be convinced. Our dysfunctional president has actively fought against creating a consensus that we should move as one against this virus. When the US decides to do something together, especially in the modern era, we do it incredibly well mostly without sacrificing human rights (with some obvious historical injustices we have to remedy). What is happening here is a failure of leadership, not a failure of liberty.

kenned3 6y ago
you mean how Americans post about the chinese internment camps and "human rights violations" while you also had Japanese internment camps during WW2, that sort of thing? Did the US internment camps violate the rights of others?
- p49k 6y ago
  Your whataboutism aside, the US formally apologized, offered reparations, overturned the court decision with a strong statement decrying the action.
- chance_state 6y ago
  >Did the US internment camps violate the rights of others? Definitely. Was that your only point? "But America..."
- leafboi 6y ago
  This was wrong; but the US has largely moved past this, China has not. The line is blurry here though. These internment camps house people based off of their religious beliefs. China and its citizens view these people the same way a US citizen would view a cult or scientology. By definition there is little difference, it's just the eastern "mysticism" associated with these religions lends more of a positive light to these religions from the western view point. I would side more with western viewpoint on this issue but I just said the above to help you empathize with China's viewpoint. It is basically scientology from their point of view and they are using their centralized powers to stamp out a cult that believes in things and acts in ways that have nothing to do with science. Think of it as an extreme form of eliminating creationism from the US educational curriculum.
- dang 6y ago
  Please stop posting nationalistic flamebait to HN. You've done it repeatedly, including in more than this thread, and that's not ok on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
leafboi 6y ago
>When the US decides to do something together, especially in the modern era. No. This is wrong. Freedom divides, Lack of freedom unifies by definition. Unification and freedom sound like words that go together but they are like oil and water because freedom involves the freedom to be divisive. Case in point, our dysfunctional president was elected based on a highly divisive voting war between people who have the freedom to think he's dysfunctional and people who have the freedom to think he's not dysfunctional. >Our dysfunctional president has actively fought against creating a consensus that we should move as one against this virus. This is freedom by definition? He and other people have the freedom to fight against consensus. In China, you are punished if you don't wear a mask which is the very definition of oppression. >we do it incredibly well mostly without sacrificing human rights Like the human right to stay alive and not be killed by people deliberately spreading covid? How many human rights were sacrificed when a bunch of people decided their freedoms were more important? Everyone has the right to believe that covid is a hoax just like how freedom of religion gives you the right to believe in scientology and cults. Meanwhile in other countries that lack freedoms, what's going on? In these places, where cults like falun gong and scientology would be viciously stamped out if they existed, secret police are patrolling the streets walking around and arresting people who don't wear masks and don't follow the rules. There are two sides to every coin. I think it's a pretty biased and narrow viewpoint whenever a US citizen reacts so negatively to things like "secret police" or "destroying our freedoms" to a topic that is so much more complex than your typical black and white / cops and robbers scenario.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> . When the US decides to do something together, especially in the modern era, we do it incredibly well mostly without sacrificing human rights As long as you don’t consider the scary brown-skinned people of the moment “human”, you might be able to say that with a straight face, but, no, even in the modern era, the US has fairly regularly enthusiastically violated people's rights, at home and abroad (often subverting institutions designed to protect rights in other countries for short-term gain as part of the latter) as broadly supported long-term policy.
- entee 6y ago
  Hence the mention of some pretty clear historic problems we have to address. I also don’t fully support some of our recent wars, and I don’t pretend to say we’re perfect. We’ve pretty clearly done some bad things even quite recently. What I love about this country is that we talk about it, we struggle with it, we do so publicly, and eventually we try to do the right thing. Our ideals are pretty good, just really hard to live up to, and the real world is complicated. We support dictators abroad, we have a racially unequal (though improving, albeit too slowly) society, there are no saints among great nations. The point is in trying to live up to the ideals. If we compare to other great powers, I think we do better than most historically. As long as we keep moving toward universal human rights and freedom, however imperfectly, I’m on board.
  - leafboi 6y ago
    China's goal is to build a cohesive economic powerhouse that functions as a unified whole. Unification at the cost of less individual freedoms. Given the current pandemic no doubt China is handling it better than the US as a result of their centralized control. The US on the other hand values more individual freedoms at the cost of less cohesion and greater division. No doubt this is what's causing the current influx of Karen's refusing to wear masks. The hatred you see towards these people on YouTube is literally enforced in china. You don't wear a mask in china, you're fucked, nobody dares do such a thing. Rather then fighting some patriotic flamewar I'd prefer HN viewers to have a more logical nonbiased view point and call it apples and oranges, but alas this is not the case. America has to be the best, especially when compared to China.

by entee 6y ago

kenned3 6y ago

you mean how Americans post about the chinese internment camps and "human rights violations" while you also had Japanese internment camps during WW2, that sort of thing? Did the US internment camps violate the rights of others?

p49k 6y ago
Your whataboutism aside, the US formally apologized, offered reparations, overturned the court decision with a strong statement decrying the action.
chance_state 6y ago
>Did the US internment camps violate the rights of others? Definitely. Was that your only point? "But America..."
leafboi 6y ago
This was wrong; but the US has largely moved past this, China has not. The line is blurry here though. These internment camps house people based off of their religious beliefs. China and its citizens view these people the same way a US citizen would view a cult or scientology. By definition there is little difference, it's just the eastern "mysticism" associated with these religions lends more of a positive light to these religions from the western view point. I would side more with western viewpoint on this issue but I just said the above to help you empathize with China's viewpoint. It is basically scientology from their point of view and they are using their centralized powers to stamp out a cult that believes in things and acts in ways that have nothing to do with science. Think of it as an extreme form of eliminating creationism from the US educational curriculum.
dang 6y ago
Please stop posting nationalistic flamebait to HN. You've done it repeatedly, including in more than this thread, and that's not ok on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

leafboi 6y ago

>When the US decides to do something together, especially in the modern era. No. This is wrong. Freedom divides, Lack of freedom unifies by definition. Unification and freedom sound like words that go together but they are like oil and water because freedom involves the freedom to be divisive. Case in point, our dysfunctional president was elected based on a highly divisive voting war between people who have the freedom to think he's dysfunctional and people who have the freedom to think he's not dysfunctional. >Our dysfunctional president has actively fought against creating a consensus that we should move as one against this virus. This is freedom by definition? He and other people have the freedom to fight against consensus. In China, you are punished if you don't wear a mask which is the very definition of oppression. >we do it incredibly well mostly without sacrificing human rights Like the human right to stay alive and not be killed by people deliberately spreading covid? How many human rights were sacrificed when a bunch of people decided their freedoms were more important? Everyone has the right to believe that covid is a hoax just like how freedom of religion gives you the right to believe in scientology and cults. Meanwhile in other countries that lack freedoms, what's going on? In these places, where cults like falun gong and scientology would be viciously stamped out if they existed, secret police are patrolling the streets walking around and arresting people who don't wear masks and don't follow the rules. There are two sides to every coin. I think it's a pretty biased and narrow viewpoint whenever a US citizen reacts so negatively to things like "secret police" or "destroying our freedoms" to a topic that is so much more complex than your typical black and white / cops and robbers scenario.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> . When the US decides to do something together, especially in the modern era, we do it incredibly well mostly without sacrificing human rights As long as you don’t consider the scary brown-skinned people of the moment “human”, you might be able to say that with a straight face, but, no, even in the modern era, the US has fairly regularly enthusiastically violated people's rights, at home and abroad (often subverting institutions designed to protect rights in other countries for short-term gain as part of the latter) as broadly supported long-term policy.

entee 6y ago
Hence the mention of some pretty clear historic problems we have to address. I also don’t fully support some of our recent wars, and I don’t pretend to say we’re perfect. We’ve pretty clearly done some bad things even quite recently. What I love about this country is that we talk about it, we struggle with it, we do so publicly, and eventually we try to do the right thing. Our ideals are pretty good, just really hard to live up to, and the real world is complicated. We support dictators abroad, we have a racially unequal (though improving, albeit too slowly) society, there are no saints among great nations. The point is in trying to live up to the ideals. If we compare to other great powers, I think we do better than most historically. As long as we keep moving toward universal human rights and freedom, however imperfectly, I’m on board.
- leafboi 6y ago
  China's goal is to build a cohesive economic powerhouse that functions as a unified whole. Unification at the cost of less individual freedoms. Given the current pandemic no doubt China is handling it better than the US as a result of their centralized control. The US on the other hand values more individual freedoms at the cost of less cohesion and greater division. No doubt this is what's causing the current influx of Karen's refusing to wear masks. The hatred you see towards these people on YouTube is literally enforced in china. You don't wear a mask in china, you're fucked, nobody dares do such a thing. Rather then fighting some patriotic flamewar I'd prefer HN viewers to have a more logical nonbiased view point and call it apples and oranges, but alas this is not the case. America has to be the best, especially when compared to China.