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Why are Americans so obsessed with freedom? It's the catalyst for peoples freedom to not wear masks and go to the beach during a pandemic. Freedom has pros and

Why are Americans so obsessed with freedom? It's the catalyst for peoples freedom to not wear masks and go to the beach during a pandemic. Freedom has pros and cons. The historical foundations of Freedom in America is an idealistic notion that should be tempered with modern knowledge about the price and complexity of freedom. My friend in China has told me that the crisis has largely been contained in in their country. The irony here being they have less freedoms than we do but they can now go out in public without worrying about transmitting or receiving covid.

entee 6y ago
Because we believe it is the way to maximize individual happiness and that individuals are inherently valuable. To take an individual’s liberty is to violate something sacred that the person has just by being alive. You have to have a very strong justification, with a high bar. This does come with tradeoffs, but I don’t think the masks and beach are part of that tradeoff. People can and will voluntarily take on inconvenience for the good of others, but they have to be convinced. Our dysfunctional president has actively fought against creating a consensus that we should move as one against this virus. When the US decides to do something together, especially in the modern era, we do it incredibly well mostly without sacrificing human rights (with some obvious historical injustices we have to remedy). What is happening here is a failure of leadership, not a failure of liberty.
- kenned3 6y ago
  you mean how Americans post about the chinese internment camps and "human rights violations" while you also had Japanese internment camps during WW2, that sort of thing? Did the US internment camps violate the rights of others?
  - p49k 6y ago
    Your whataboutism aside, the US formally apologized, offered reparations, overturned the court decision with a strong statement decrying the action.
  - chance_state 6y ago
    >Did the US internment camps violate the rights of others? Definitely. Was that your only point? "But America..."
  - leafboi 6y ago
    This was wrong; but the US has largely moved past this, China has not. The line is blurry here though. These internment camps house people based off of their religious beliefs. China and its citizens view these people the same way a US citizen would view a cult or scientology. By definition there is little difference, it's just the eastern "mysticism" associated with these religions lends more of a positive light to these religions from the western view point. I would side more with western viewpoint on this issue but I just said the above to help you empathize with China's viewpoint. It is basically scientology from their point of view and they are using their centralized powers to stamp out a cult that believes in things and acts in ways that have nothing to do with science. Think of it as an extreme form of eliminating creationism from the US educational curriculum.
  - dang 6y ago
    Please stop posting nationalistic flamebait to HN. You've done it repeatedly, including in more than this thread, and that's not ok on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- leafboi 6y ago
  >When the US decides to do something together, especially in the modern era. No. This is wrong. Freedom divides, Lack of freedom unifies by definition. Unification and freedom sound like words that go together but they are like oil and water because freedom involves the freedom to be divisive. Case in point, our dysfunctional president was elected based on a highly divisive voting war between people who have the freedom to think he's dysfunctional and people who have the freedom to think he's not dysfunctional. >Our dysfunctional president has actively fought against creating a consensus that we should move as one against this virus. This is freedom by definition? He and other people have the freedom to fight against consensus. In China, you are punished if you don't wear a mask which is the very definition of oppression. >we do it incredibly well mostly without sacrificing human rights Like the human right to stay alive and not be killed by people deliberately spreading covid? How many human rights were sacrificed when a bunch of people decided their freedoms were more important? Everyone has the right to believe that covid is a hoax just like how freedom of religion gives you the right to believe in scientology and cults. Meanwhile in other countries that lack freedoms, what's going on? In these places, where cults like falun gong and scientology would be viciously stamped out if they existed, secret police are patrolling the streets walking around and arresting people who don't wear masks and don't follow the rules. There are two sides to every coin. I think it's a pretty biased and narrow viewpoint whenever a US citizen reacts so negatively to things like "secret police" or "destroying our freedoms" to a topic that is so much more complex than your typical black and white / cops and robbers scenario.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > . When the US decides to do something together, especially in the modern era, we do it incredibly well mostly without sacrificing human rights As long as you don’t consider the scary brown-skinned people of the moment “human”, you might be able to say that with a straight face, but, no, even in the modern era, the US has fairly regularly enthusiastically violated people's rights, at home and abroad (often subverting institutions designed to protect rights in other countries for short-term gain as part of the latter) as broadly supported long-term policy.
  - entee 6y ago
    Hence the mention of some pretty clear historic problems we have to address. I also don’t fully support some of our recent wars, and I don’t pretend to say we’re perfect. We’ve pretty clearly done some bad things even quite recently. What I love about this country is that we talk about it, we struggle with it, we do so publicly, and eventually we try to do the right thing. Our ideals are pretty good, just really hard to live up to, and the real world is complicated. We support dictators abroad, we have a racially unequal (though improving, albeit too slowly) society, there are no saints among great nations. The point is in trying to live up to the ideals. If we compare to other great powers, I think we do better than most historically. As long as we keep moving toward universal human rights and freedom, however imperfectly, I’m on board.
    - leafboi 6y ago
      China's goal is to build a cohesive economic powerhouse that functions as a unified whole. Unification at the cost of less individual freedoms. Given the current pandemic no doubt China is handling it better than the US as a result of their centralized control. The US on the other hand values more individual freedoms at the cost of less cohesion and greater division. No doubt this is what's causing the current influx of Karen's refusing to wear masks. The hatred you see towards these people on YouTube is literally enforced in china. You don't wear a mask in china, you're fucked, nobody dares do such a thing. Rather then fighting some patriotic flamewar I'd prefer HN viewers to have a more logical nonbiased view point and call it apples and oranges, but alas this is not the case. America has to be the best, especially when compared to China.
dade_ 6y ago
Your friend in China cannot say that the crisis isn’t contained, or he will be detained. That is why the West is obsessed with freedom.
- leafboi 6y ago
  Your view of China is deluded to a point of comical exaggeration. She said this to me over facebook. Tell me what you think that implies.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - NPMaxwell 6y ago
    It implies that your friend lives in Hong Kong or Taiwan, and that China employs people to read Facebook posts from those places. Unless you mean that she sent you a messenger chat (which now has end-to-end encryption). In that case, she lives in Hong Kong or Taiwan and the Facebook encryption should not be relied on to protect yourself from Chinese monitoring.
  - jruroc 6y ago
    Using a VPN because it's blocked.
    - leafboi 6y ago
      That's right. And will she be detained for using Facebook or VPN? No.
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  Interestingly, that is also why the upthread comment complaining about our lack of freedom is so absurd.
aww_dang 6y ago
I think you ask a fair question here. The answer is in your own comment. >...freedom to not wear masks and go to the beach during a pandemic. >...they can now go out in public without worrying about transmitting or receiving covid. People who are going to the beach probably are not worried about COVID. There's also a fair amount of debate among the technocrats about how transmissible it is on a beach. Ultimately people just want the freedom to decide for themselves. Central planning isn't always the best for everyone. Fallibility plays a key role. If your friend is happy with her situation in China, that's fine. I'm sure beach goers also enjoyed themselves...
- crimsonalucard5 6y ago
  You're forgetting that by going out without a mask to the beach you may have received covid and transmitted covid and killed people as a result of being a vector for transmission. A centrally planned country prevents senseless deaths from occurring at the cost of freedom.
- leafboi 6y ago
  >People who are going to the beach probably are not worried about COVID. There's also a fair amount of debate among the technocrats about how transmissible it is on a beach. There were huge huge crowds on the beach with know one wearing masks and now we're experiencing Covid spikes. I wonder why? The doctors and the CDC are telling everyone to stay in and wear masks. Ignore the technocrats, they're not experts.
  - aww_dang 6y ago
    In case you're not familiar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy By definition a technocrat would be ordained as an expert in his field. However, this does not preclude the fallibility of man. If we extrapolate from this, we can say that it would be impossible for an individual or group of individuals to obtain the perfect information necessary to ideally centrally plan a society. There is a propensity for 'experts' in their field to massage data to suit political or personal goals. Heart attack deaths are down, but COVID deaths are up. Some have suggested that this is due to selective reporting of deaths which would otherwise be cardiac arrests as COVID related deaths. There's also the problem of the unseen. Even if the epidemiologists could have the perfect information in regards to controlling an outbreak, they wouldn't necessarily appreciate the economic or social implications of their mandates. If we accept these limitations, we can say that greater information can be obtained via the network effects of decentralized decision making. This is the value of individualism which has allowed the west to flourish, whereas more communal cultures have been regressive. Of course this is all a very general overview. >and now we're experiencing Covid spikes. I wonder why? I'll ignore your cherry picking and refrain from picking an equivalent counter-example. If we accept that the US has failed in managing the covid crisis, then we should just as readily ask if top-down planning has been effective. Instead you focus on the inverse.
kenned3 6y ago
The answer is simple. Propaganda. US children have been told about "freedoms" since they were old enough to go to school. When asked to define what "Freedoms" they have vs other nations, they stumble on multiple fronts. This is because so few own passports and have ever left the US and they instead depend on their FOX news for world views. I've actually been to China many times, and can tell you that the US view of China as often posted here, vs reality is very far apart.
- cameronbrown 6y ago
  On your latter point, we don't need to go to China to know about it. The fact the great firewall exists is an affront to human liberty. All other freedoms are downstream from speech.
  - leafboi 6y ago
    He's not wrong you really need to go to China to see the truth. Your logic is as simplistic as a someone saying America is full of overweight white supremacists or rich people with Hollywood good looks. Both stereotypes gloss over a reality that is far more complex. As someone who's lived and breathed aspects of both countries the story of china is the same. A complex story with many facets very good and very bad as well. I will say that the media's portrayal of China is heavily biased towards the bad side of china and has resulted in your bigoted and niave one sided outlook. This is not an insult, it is a statement to help you be more self aware. Like telling a white supremacists about the morality of equality among races I don't know if you'd be able to reexamine your view point, or just follow your biased outlook all the way to the bloody end. Put it on your bucket list. Go to Shanghai or Shenzhen. China's progress is breakneck, there has never been a phenomenon like it in the history of civilization and I am not saying this haphhazardly. I promise you, that if you go, you will be blown away.
- CyberDildonics 6y ago
  You are conflating valuing something with thinking that no one else has it. Also traveling to china has nothing to do with understanding what the government can and will do citizens that dissent against it. You don't walk around a city and prove a negative by not witnessing any disappearances or live organ harvesting (there are reports that you can -schedule- heart transplants). That is like picking up snow to prove that global climate change is a myth.
heavyset_go 6y ago
> My friend in China has told me that the crisis has largely been contained in in their country. You could never know, because freedom of speech and the press doesn't exist there. The CCP jailed the doctors and experts who spoke up about the original Wuhan coronavirus outbreak in 2019, then proceeded to have a public banquet without social distancing or masks in the following weeks, and the CCP celebrated the fact that 40,000 families[1] showed up to it. You say that the lack of freedom has been a good thing for handling the outbreak, but that lack of freedom stopped doctors and epidemiologists from learning more about the coronavirus outbreak while it could still be contained, and prevented them from informing and warning the world about it. [1] https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/coronavirus-wuhan-neighbourhood-sees-infections-after-40000-families-gather-for https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/coronavirus-wuha...
- leafboi 6y ago
  Yeah like all countries china is fallible and imperfect. I'm talking about the general handling of the epidemic. When china got serious, they killed it. When America tried to get serious they got people protesting that covid is a hoax. There's some really stupid shit that china did like you brought up above, but overall in the big picture scheme of things... China did a really good job and the United States is bungling the whole situation.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    In the overall big picture of events, the lack of free speech and assembly in China allowed a containable outbreak to become the largest worldwide pandemic in 100 years. That doesn't make authoritarianism something to be celebrated, that makes it something the CCP should be embarrassed of. Again, because of the lack of free speech and press in China, the only proof of what you allege publicized through CCP approved media. Doubling down on authoritarianism and suppression of the press after initial authoritarianism allowed an epidemic to become a pandemic just suggests you can't trust the press in China without extensive independent auditing, which the CCP doesn't allow.
    - 6y ago

entee 6y ago

Because we believe it is the way to maximize individual happiness and that individuals are inherently valuable. To take an individual’s liberty is to violate something sacred that the person has just by being alive. You have to have a very strong justification, with a high bar. This does come with tradeoffs, but I don’t think the masks and beach are part of that tradeoff. People can and will voluntarily take on inconvenience for the good of others, but they have to be convinced. Our dysfunctional president has actively fought against creating a consensus that we should move as one against this virus. When the US decides to do something together, especially in the modern era, we do it incredibly well mostly without sacrificing human rights (with some obvious historical injustices we have to remedy). What is happening here is a failure of leadership, not a failure of liberty.

kenned3 6y ago
you mean how Americans post about the chinese internment camps and "human rights violations" while you also had Japanese internment camps during WW2, that sort of thing? Did the US internment camps violate the rights of others?
- p49k 6y ago
  Your whataboutism aside, the US formally apologized, offered reparations, overturned the court decision with a strong statement decrying the action.
- chance_state 6y ago
  >Did the US internment camps violate the rights of others? Definitely. Was that your only point? "But America..."
- leafboi 6y ago
  This was wrong; but the US has largely moved past this, China has not. The line is blurry here though. These internment camps house people based off of their religious beliefs. China and its citizens view these people the same way a US citizen would view a cult or scientology. By definition there is little difference, it's just the eastern "mysticism" associated with these religions lends more of a positive light to these religions from the western view point. I would side more with western viewpoint on this issue but I just said the above to help you empathize with China's viewpoint. It is basically scientology from their point of view and they are using their centralized powers to stamp out a cult that believes in things and acts in ways that have nothing to do with science. Think of it as an extreme form of eliminating creationism from the US educational curriculum.
- dang 6y ago
  Please stop posting nationalistic flamebait to HN. You've done it repeatedly, including in more than this thread, and that's not ok on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
leafboi 6y ago
>When the US decides to do something together, especially in the modern era. No. This is wrong. Freedom divides, Lack of freedom unifies by definition. Unification and freedom sound like words that go together but they are like oil and water because freedom involves the freedom to be divisive. Case in point, our dysfunctional president was elected based on a highly divisive voting war between people who have the freedom to think he's dysfunctional and people who have the freedom to think he's not dysfunctional. >Our dysfunctional president has actively fought against creating a consensus that we should move as one against this virus. This is freedom by definition? He and other people have the freedom to fight against consensus. In China, you are punished if you don't wear a mask which is the very definition of oppression. >we do it incredibly well mostly without sacrificing human rights Like the human right to stay alive and not be killed by people deliberately spreading covid? How many human rights were sacrificed when a bunch of people decided their freedoms were more important? Everyone has the right to believe that covid is a hoax just like how freedom of religion gives you the right to believe in scientology and cults. Meanwhile in other countries that lack freedoms, what's going on? In these places, where cults like falun gong and scientology would be viciously stamped out if they existed, secret police are patrolling the streets walking around and arresting people who don't wear masks and don't follow the rules. There are two sides to every coin. I think it's a pretty biased and narrow viewpoint whenever a US citizen reacts so negatively to things like "secret police" or "destroying our freedoms" to a topic that is so much more complex than your typical black and white / cops and robbers scenario.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> . When the US decides to do something together, especially in the modern era, we do it incredibly well mostly without sacrificing human rights As long as you don’t consider the scary brown-skinned people of the moment “human”, you might be able to say that with a straight face, but, no, even in the modern era, the US has fairly regularly enthusiastically violated people's rights, at home and abroad (often subverting institutions designed to protect rights in other countries for short-term gain as part of the latter) as broadly supported long-term policy.
- entee 6y ago
  Hence the mention of some pretty clear historic problems we have to address. I also don’t fully support some of our recent wars, and I don’t pretend to say we’re perfect. We’ve pretty clearly done some bad things even quite recently. What I love about this country is that we talk about it, we struggle with it, we do so publicly, and eventually we try to do the right thing. Our ideals are pretty good, just really hard to live up to, and the real world is complicated. We support dictators abroad, we have a racially unequal (though improving, albeit too slowly) society, there are no saints among great nations. The point is in trying to live up to the ideals. If we compare to other great powers, I think we do better than most historically. As long as we keep moving toward universal human rights and freedom, however imperfectly, I’m on board.
  - leafboi 6y ago
    China's goal is to build a cohesive economic powerhouse that functions as a unified whole. Unification at the cost of less individual freedoms. Given the current pandemic no doubt China is handling it better than the US as a result of their centralized control. The US on the other hand values more individual freedoms at the cost of less cohesion and greater division. No doubt this is what's causing the current influx of Karen's refusing to wear masks. The hatred you see towards these people on YouTube is literally enforced in china. You don't wear a mask in china, you're fucked, nobody dares do such a thing. Rather then fighting some patriotic flamewar I'd prefer HN viewers to have a more logical nonbiased view point and call it apples and oranges, but alas this is not the case. America has to be the best, especially when compared to China.

dade_ 6y ago

Your friend in China cannot say that the crisis isn’t contained, or he will be detained. That is why the West is obsessed with freedom.

leafboi 6y ago
Your view of China is deluded to a point of comical exaggeration. She said this to me over facebook. Tell me what you think that implies.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- NPMaxwell 6y ago
  It implies that your friend lives in Hong Kong or Taiwan, and that China employs people to read Facebook posts from those places. Unless you mean that she sent you a messenger chat (which now has end-to-end encryption). In that case, she lives in Hong Kong or Taiwan and the Facebook encryption should not be relied on to protect yourself from Chinese monitoring.
- jruroc 6y ago
  Using a VPN because it's blocked.
  - leafboi 6y ago
    That's right. And will she be detained for using Facebook or VPN? No.
lawnchair_larry 6y ago
Interestingly, that is also why the upthread comment complaining about our lack of freedom is so absurd.

aww_dang 6y ago

I think you ask a fair question here. The answer is in your own comment. >...freedom to not wear masks and go to the beach during a pandemic. >...they can now go out in public without worrying about transmitting or receiving covid. People who are going to the beach probably are not worried about COVID. There's also a fair amount of debate among the technocrats about how transmissible it is on a beach. Ultimately people just want the freedom to decide for themselves. Central planning isn't always the best for everyone. Fallibility plays a key role. If your friend is happy with her situation in China, that's fine. I'm sure beach goers also enjoyed themselves...

crimsonalucard5 6y ago
You're forgetting that by going out without a mask to the beach you may have received covid and transmitted covid and killed people as a result of being a vector for transmission. A centrally planned country prevents senseless deaths from occurring at the cost of freedom.
leafboi 6y ago
>People who are going to the beach probably are not worried about COVID. There's also a fair amount of debate among the technocrats about how transmissible it is on a beach. There were huge huge crowds on the beach with know one wearing masks and now we're experiencing Covid spikes. I wonder why? The doctors and the CDC are telling everyone to stay in and wear masks. Ignore the technocrats, they're not experts.
- aww_dang 6y ago
  In case you're not familiar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy By definition a technocrat would be ordained as an expert in his field. However, this does not preclude the fallibility of man. If we extrapolate from this, we can say that it would be impossible for an individual or group of individuals to obtain the perfect information necessary to ideally centrally plan a society. There is a propensity for 'experts' in their field to massage data to suit political or personal goals. Heart attack deaths are down, but COVID deaths are up. Some have suggested that this is due to selective reporting of deaths which would otherwise be cardiac arrests as COVID related deaths. There's also the problem of the unseen. Even if the epidemiologists could have the perfect information in regards to controlling an outbreak, they wouldn't necessarily appreciate the economic or social implications of their mandates. If we accept these limitations, we can say that greater information can be obtained via the network effects of decentralized decision making. This is the value of individualism which has allowed the west to flourish, whereas more communal cultures have been regressive. Of course this is all a very general overview. >and now we're experiencing Covid spikes. I wonder why? I'll ignore your cherry picking and refrain from picking an equivalent counter-example. If we accept that the US has failed in managing the covid crisis, then we should just as readily ask if top-down planning has been effective. Instead you focus on the inverse.

kenned3 6y ago

The answer is simple. Propaganda. US children have been told about "freedoms" since they were old enough to go to school. When asked to define what "Freedoms" they have vs other nations, they stumble on multiple fronts. This is because so few own passports and have ever left the US and they instead depend on their FOX news for world views. I've actually been to China many times, and can tell you that the US view of China as often posted here, vs reality is very far apart.

cameronbrown 6y ago
On your latter point, we don't need to go to China to know about it. The fact the great firewall exists is an affront to human liberty. All other freedoms are downstream from speech.
- leafboi 6y ago
  He's not wrong you really need to go to China to see the truth. Your logic is as simplistic as a someone saying America is full of overweight white supremacists or rich people with Hollywood good looks. Both stereotypes gloss over a reality that is far more complex. As someone who's lived and breathed aspects of both countries the story of china is the same. A complex story with many facets very good and very bad as well. I will say that the media's portrayal of China is heavily biased towards the bad side of china and has resulted in your bigoted and niave one sided outlook. This is not an insult, it is a statement to help you be more self aware. Like telling a white supremacists about the morality of equality among races I don't know if you'd be able to reexamine your view point, or just follow your biased outlook all the way to the bloody end. Put it on your bucket list. Go to Shanghai or Shenzhen. China's progress is breakneck, there has never been a phenomenon like it in the history of civilization and I am not saying this haphhazardly. I promise you, that if you go, you will be blown away.
CyberDildonics 6y ago
You are conflating valuing something with thinking that no one else has it. Also traveling to china has nothing to do with understanding what the government can and will do citizens that dissent against it. You don't walk around a city and prove a negative by not witnessing any disappearances or live organ harvesting (there are reports that you can -schedule- heart transplants). That is like picking up snow to prove that global climate change is a myth.

heavyset_go 6y ago

> My friend in China has told me that the crisis has largely been contained in in their country. You could never know, because freedom of speech and the press doesn't exist there. The CCP jailed the doctors and experts who spoke up about the original Wuhan coronavirus outbreak in 2019, then proceeded to have a public banquet without social distancing or masks in the following weeks, and the CCP celebrated the fact that 40,000 families[1] showed up to it. You say that the lack of freedom has been a good thing for handling the outbreak, but that lack of freedom stopped doctors and epidemiologists from learning more about the coronavirus outbreak while it could still be contained, and prevented them from informing and warning the world about it. [1] https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/coronavirus-wuhan-neighbourhood-sees-infections-after-40000-families-gather-for https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/coronavirus-wuha...

leafboi 6y ago
Yeah like all countries china is fallible and imperfect. I'm talking about the general handling of the epidemic. When china got serious, they killed it. When America tried to get serious they got people protesting that covid is a hoax. There's some really stupid shit that china did like you brought up above, but overall in the big picture scheme of things... China did a really good job and the United States is bungling the whole situation.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  In the overall big picture of events, the lack of free speech and assembly in China allowed a containable outbreak to become the largest worldwide pandemic in 100 years. That doesn't make authoritarianism something to be celebrated, that makes it something the CCP should be embarrassed of. Again, because of the lack of free speech and press in China, the only proof of what you allege publicized through CCP approved media. Doubling down on authoritarianism and suppression of the press after initial authoritarianism allowed an epidemic to become a pandemic just suggests you can't trust the press in China without extensive independent auditing, which the CCP doesn't allow.
  - 6y ago