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The very first line of what the NYT wrote is a complete lie: "Peaceful protests were already happening for weeks when federal officers arrived on July 4. Our vi

The very first line of what the NYT wrote is a complete lie: "Peaceful protests were already happening for weeks when federal officers arrived on July 4. Our video shows how President Trump’s deployment ignited chaos." May 31st: Looting and fire at Justice Center, adjacent to federal courthouse: https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=250814 https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=25081... June 27th: Some feds arrive in response: https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2020/07/evidence-shows-portland-police-working-with-federal-officers-at-protests-contradicting-city-officials.html https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2020/07/evidence-shows-portl...

chx 6y ago
Complete lie?? No. The protests have been mostly peaceful with a few small incidents. https://twitter.com/ImmCivilRights/status/1267134040177545216 https://twitter.com/ImmCivilRights/status/126713404017754521... > Letting a demonstration be judged by its most violent participants but not judging a police force by its most violent cops is the language of the oppressor. Calling them a "few feds' as if they were inconsequential is again disingenious. The problem is not their number but that they are not in uniform, they have no insignia and they kidnap people off the streets. https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unmarked-vehicles-portland-protesters/ https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unm... The big problem here, of course, is if white supremacists show up in "tacticool" gear and truly kidnap you to murder you then it'd be prudent to resist. But if these goons are actually feds then it'd be prudent not to resist. But you can't tell. Even just four feds behaving like this would be enough to create this unbearable situation. But beyond such practical concerns, this is the tactics of an authoritarian regime. This is why my so many of my friends in Portland joined the protests, this is absolutely not tenable. I was born behind the Iron Curtain. Our phone was bugged. We knew. I know a ... little ... about authoritarian regimes and secret police.
- bendbro 6y ago
  > Complete lie?? No. The protests have been mostly peaceful with a few small incidents. See my comment in the sibling thread. The protests have been composed of both violent and peaceful members. While peaceful protestors far outnumber violent ones, violence does occur most of the nights between those two dates. Calling the protests peaceful is a lie and saying the federal police started the violence was a lie- it was well established there before they arrived. > Letting a demonstration be judged by its most violent participants but not judging a police force by its most violent cops is the language of the oppressor. I fail to see why this is relevant. I think the demonstrations are fine. I think the riots are not. I think the federal police can defend their federal courthouse from vandalism and breakins. > Calling them a "few feds' as if they were inconsequential is again disingenious. My mistake, I am willing to amend to "many". I used "some" as I do not actually know their number. > The problem is not their number but that they are not in uniform, they have no insignia and they kidnap people off the streets. Kidnapping is an exaggeration. It is an arrest. While I agree the uniforms are problematic, it doesn't make the act illegal. > The big problem here, of course, is if white supremacists show up in "tacticool" gear and truly kidnap you to murder you then it'd be prudent to resist. It's prudent to resist in any case where someone tries to arrest you without cause. That said, you may incorrectly judge whether or not they have cause, so simply listening to their orders since they are police is a better option. When you can't identify them as police, as you said, that is a problem. That said, the odds that you will encounter a situation where you are have unknowingly committed a crime and cannot identify the person arresting you as an officer are highly improbable. It's worth criticizing the officer's uniforms and approach, but going from that criticism to "tactics of an authoritarian regime" is a unfounded jump. > This is why my so many of my friends in Portland joined the protests, this is absolutely not tenable. Simple way for your friends to avoid arrest by the feds: don't go hang outside their courthouse while people throw shit at it. > I was born behind the Iron Curtain. Our phone was bugged. We knew. I know a ... little ... about authoritarian regimes and secret police. These aren't KGB breaking into your home at 3am for whispering some slight dissent to your third cousin- these are federal police arresting people for standing on the fed's doorstep and breaking shit. There is an obvious difference and I will be side-by-side with you when they actually start abducting people. That said, where did you live and what did you experience? Why do you think the feds, who I see as arresting people for obvious acts of vandalism, are similar to a secret police, who punish people for spurious crimes without a public trial?
  - sseagull 6y ago
    I know “abducting people” usually has a stronger connotation. However, at least one of the “kidnapping” videos, as described and justified by the Deputy Director, shows an unconstitutional arrest. Should the police be punished for breaking the law? https://mobile.twitter.com/AndrewMCrespo/status/1285738001004482561 https://mobile.twitter.com/AndrewMCrespo/status/128573800100...
    - bendbro 6y ago
      They absolutely should. What makes this arrest unconstitutional? [edit] read more of the twitter thread. It is speculative. If the speculation is proven then I agree the federal police were wrong in this instance.
  - chx 6y ago
    > Kidnapping is an exaggeration Both the Philadelphia DA and a Manhattan DA candidate called it kidnapping. https://lawandcrime.com/george-floyd-death/philadelphia-da-promises-to-criminally-charge-trumps-dhs-troops-if-they-kidnap-protesters/ https://lawandcrime.com/george-floyd-death/philadelphia-da-p... https://twitter.com/elizaorlins/status/1285387834413715458 https://twitter.com/elizaorlins/status/1285387834413715458 > don't go hang outside their courthouse while people throw shit at it. Last night feds teargassed the crowd when they tossed a few beach balls over the fence.
darkerside 6y ago
The time between 5/31 and 6/27 would be characterized as weeks.
- bendbro 6y ago
  Good point. I will fill those gaps. June 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th all had violence from some protestors or unlawful assemblies declared by Portland police, according to this timeline which cites from primary sources: https://www.kgw.com/mobile/article/news/local/protests/protests-in-portland/283-21d67e10-4b33-46d4-a81e-7d3b437a7519 https://www.kgw.com/mobile/article/news/local/protests/prote... June 14th also had an unlawful assembly declared, due to "incediary devices" being thrown. https://katu.com/news/local/portland-police-declare-downtown-protest-unlawful-assembly https://katu.com/news/local/portland-police-declare-downtown... June 17-18 have reports of damage https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=250892 https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=25089... June 20th had more of the same https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=250904 https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=25090...

chx 6y ago

Complete lie?? No. The protests have been mostly peaceful with a few small incidents. https://twitter.com/ImmCivilRights/status/1267134040177545216 https://twitter.com/ImmCivilRights/status/126713404017754521... > Letting a demonstration be judged by its most violent participants but not judging a police force by its most violent cops is the language of the oppressor. Calling them a "few feds' as if they were inconsequential is again disingenious. The problem is not their number but that they are not in uniform, they have no insignia and they kidnap people off the streets. https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unmarked-vehicles-portland-protesters/ https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unm... The big problem here, of course, is if white supremacists show up in "tacticool" gear and truly kidnap you to murder you then it'd be prudent to resist. But if these goons are actually feds then it'd be prudent not to resist. But you can't tell. Even just four feds behaving like this would be enough to create this unbearable situation. But beyond such practical concerns, this is the tactics of an authoritarian regime. This is why my so many of my friends in Portland joined the protests, this is absolutely not tenable. I was born behind the Iron Curtain. Our phone was bugged. We knew. I know a ... little ... about authoritarian regimes and secret police.

bendbro 6y ago
> Complete lie?? No. The protests have been mostly peaceful with a few small incidents. See my comment in the sibling thread. The protests have been composed of both violent and peaceful members. While peaceful protestors far outnumber violent ones, violence does occur most of the nights between those two dates. Calling the protests peaceful is a lie and saying the federal police started the violence was a lie- it was well established there before they arrived. > Letting a demonstration be judged by its most violent participants but not judging a police force by its most violent cops is the language of the oppressor. I fail to see why this is relevant. I think the demonstrations are fine. I think the riots are not. I think the federal police can defend their federal courthouse from vandalism and breakins. > Calling them a "few feds' as if they were inconsequential is again disingenious. My mistake, I am willing to amend to "many". I used "some" as I do not actually know their number. > The problem is not their number but that they are not in uniform, they have no insignia and they kidnap people off the streets. Kidnapping is an exaggeration. It is an arrest. While I agree the uniforms are problematic, it doesn't make the act illegal. > The big problem here, of course, is if white supremacists show up in "tacticool" gear and truly kidnap you to murder you then it'd be prudent to resist. It's prudent to resist in any case where someone tries to arrest you without cause. That said, you may incorrectly judge whether or not they have cause, so simply listening to their orders since they are police is a better option. When you can't identify them as police, as you said, that is a problem. That said, the odds that you will encounter a situation where you are have unknowingly committed a crime and cannot identify the person arresting you as an officer are highly improbable. It's worth criticizing the officer's uniforms and approach, but going from that criticism to "tactics of an authoritarian regime" is a unfounded jump. > This is why my so many of my friends in Portland joined the protests, this is absolutely not tenable. Simple way for your friends to avoid arrest by the feds: don't go hang outside their courthouse while people throw shit at it. > I was born behind the Iron Curtain. Our phone was bugged. We knew. I know a ... little ... about authoritarian regimes and secret police. These aren't KGB breaking into your home at 3am for whispering some slight dissent to your third cousin- these are federal police arresting people for standing on the fed's doorstep and breaking shit. There is an obvious difference and I will be side-by-side with you when they actually start abducting people. That said, where did you live and what did you experience? Why do you think the feds, who I see as arresting people for obvious acts of vandalism, are similar to a secret police, who punish people for spurious crimes without a public trial?
- sseagull 6y ago
  I know “abducting people” usually has a stronger connotation. However, at least one of the “kidnapping” videos, as described and justified by the Deputy Director, shows an unconstitutional arrest. Should the police be punished for breaking the law? https://mobile.twitter.com/AndrewMCrespo/status/1285738001004482561 https://mobile.twitter.com/AndrewMCrespo/status/128573800100...
  - bendbro 6y ago
    They absolutely should. What makes this arrest unconstitutional? [edit] read more of the twitter thread. It is speculative. If the speculation is proven then I agree the federal police were wrong in this instance.
- chx 6y ago
  > Kidnapping is an exaggeration Both the Philadelphia DA and a Manhattan DA candidate called it kidnapping. https://lawandcrime.com/george-floyd-death/philadelphia-da-promises-to-criminally-charge-trumps-dhs-troops-if-they-kidnap-protesters/ https://lawandcrime.com/george-floyd-death/philadelphia-da-p... https://twitter.com/elizaorlins/status/1285387834413715458 https://twitter.com/elizaorlins/status/1285387834413715458 > don't go hang outside their courthouse while people throw shit at it. Last night feds teargassed the crowd when they tossed a few beach balls over the fence.

darkerside 6y ago

The time between 5/31 and 6/27 would be characterized as weeks.

bendbro 6y ago
Good point. I will fill those gaps. June 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th all had violence from some protestors or unlawful assemblies declared by Portland police, according to this timeline which cites from primary sources: https://www.kgw.com/mobile/article/news/local/protests/protests-in-portland/283-21d67e10-4b33-46d4-a81e-7d3b437a7519 https://www.kgw.com/mobile/article/news/local/protests/prote... June 14th also had an unlawful assembly declared, due to "incediary devices" being thrown. https://katu.com/news/local/portland-police-declare-downtown-protest-unlawful-assembly https://katu.com/news/local/portland-police-declare-downtown... June 17-18 have reports of damage https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=250892 https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=25089... June 20th had more of the same https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=250904 https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/news/read.cfm?id=25090...