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I totally agree that officers should better identify themselves. But I disagree that the actions of federal officers can be conflated with "tyranny", "atrociti

I totally agree that officers should better identify themselves. But I disagree that the actions of federal officers can be conflated with "tyranny", "atrocities", "overreach", "abduction", and "waging war" as has been done in this thread. It's called policing: criticize it as such.

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KozmoNau7 6y ago
Unidentifiable federal officers with no markings on their combat uniforms, who refuse to identify themselves as federal officers when asked, taking protestors by force and driving them away in unmarked rental vans is an unaccountable authoritarian show of force, it is not merely policing.
- dgellow 6y ago
  Could that be a result of Trump declaring antifa a terrorist group? Because that sounds like what the US does against terrorist bodies. The difference is that it is now on US soil . Could it be for example that because of the patriot act (or another set of law) once a group is designed by the government as “terrorist” then they lose part of their rights and can be treated as badly as wanted by the police force? That’s what I understood happened post 9/11, not with the police but with CIA and FBI. I’m wondering if some people in the US government are using such an excuse to internally justify their actions. As a complete outsider, what I see from actions from the unidentifiable armed police could somehow match what the CIA and their “contractors” did during the 2000-2010 decade. I’m just thinking out loud here, I may clearly be off. But that’s something that always terrifies me when reading about US laws passed after 9/11, the potential for abuse against citizens is completely crazy.
- bendbro 6y ago
  I partially agree. I think it is definitely an authoritarian show of force, but I believe it is accountable, as the outcome of the arrested should be public record. And as an accountable, authoritarian show of force, they are working as intended. I would be open to debating whether those methods of arrest should be used: I lean toward yes, and don't see them as anything similar to brownshirts or secret police, as these federal police merely arrest on probably cause, rather than affect punishment on false pretenses. I would also be open to arguments about whether the federal police should conduct operations outside the grounds of their property, which I have heard others say has happened. I lean toward yes.
  - KozmoNau7 6y ago
    That is putting a lot of faith into an administration that has shown countless times to not care about fairness, to have acted in severely bad faith against civilians and to have courted and outright worked together with far-right movements. It has also aggressively fired anyone who has dared question these policies from the inside. These are all signs of an authoritarian power grab. In addition to that, you make a number of arguments with absolutely no evidence to back them up. You claim that the arrests are public record and completely on the level. There is no evidence of that. You claim that they arrest on valid probable cause. There is no evidence of that. When people in military uniforms with no markings roll up in unmarked rental vans and refuse to identify themselves before taking away random protestors, that is a deliberate scare tactic and fear campaign. As protestors, you do not know whether you are being taken by federal officers or by a far-right militia. You do not know where you will be taken or when (or if) you will be released again. This is completely deliberate, and designed to instill a fear of protesting government injustice. There is a very good point to be made that this is a gross violation of the first amendment.
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mercer 6y ago
Maybe in the boiled-frog US situation it's called policing. I consider this kind of stuff pure fascist-adjacent behavior that is extremely concerning.

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KozmoNau7 6y ago

Unidentifiable federal officers with no markings on their combat uniforms, who refuse to identify themselves as federal officers when asked, taking protestors by force and driving them away in unmarked rental vans is an unaccountable authoritarian show of force, it is not merely policing.

dgellow 6y ago
Could that be a result of Trump declaring antifa a terrorist group? Because that sounds like what the US does against terrorist bodies. The difference is that it is now on US soil . Could it be for example that because of the patriot act (or another set of law) once a group is designed by the government as “terrorist” then they lose part of their rights and can be treated as badly as wanted by the police force? That’s what I understood happened post 9/11, not with the police but with CIA and FBI. I’m wondering if some people in the US government are using such an excuse to internally justify their actions. As a complete outsider, what I see from actions from the unidentifiable armed police could somehow match what the CIA and their “contractors” did during the 2000-2010 decade. I’m just thinking out loud here, I may clearly be off. But that’s something that always terrifies me when reading about US laws passed after 9/11, the potential for abuse against citizens is completely crazy.
bendbro 6y ago
I partially agree. I think it is definitely an authoritarian show of force, but I believe it is accountable, as the outcome of the arrested should be public record. And as an accountable, authoritarian show of force, they are working as intended. I would be open to debating whether those methods of arrest should be used: I lean toward yes, and don't see them as anything similar to brownshirts or secret police, as these federal police merely arrest on probably cause, rather than affect punishment on false pretenses. I would also be open to arguments about whether the federal police should conduct operations outside the grounds of their property, which I have heard others say has happened. I lean toward yes.
- KozmoNau7 6y ago
  That is putting a lot of faith into an administration that has shown countless times to not care about fairness, to have acted in severely bad faith against civilians and to have courted and outright worked together with far-right movements. It has also aggressively fired anyone who has dared question these policies from the inside. These are all signs of an authoritarian power grab. In addition to that, you make a number of arguments with absolutely no evidence to back them up. You claim that the arrests are public record and completely on the level. There is no evidence of that. You claim that they arrest on valid probable cause. There is no evidence of that. When people in military uniforms with no markings roll up in unmarked rental vans and refuse to identify themselves before taking away random protestors, that is a deliberate scare tactic and fear campaign. As protestors, you do not know whether you are being taken by federal officers or by a far-right militia. You do not know where you will be taken or when (or if) you will be released again. This is completely deliberate, and designed to instill a fear of protesting government injustice. There is a very good point to be made that this is a gross violation of the first amendment.

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mercer 6y ago

Maybe in the boiled-frog US situation it's called policing. I consider this kind of stuff pure fascist-adjacent behavior that is extremely concerning.