7 ms·

I'm really confused about this. If law enforcement refuses to identify themselves and also, you need to obey the orders of law enforcement but don't need to ob

I'm really confused about this. If law enforcement refuses to identify themselves and also, you need to obey the orders of law enforcement but don't need to obey the orders of persons who dress up as law enforcement.. What happens next? For all they know, it could be some random "team" claiming to be a part of the executive branch. If you resist arrest from someone claiming to be law enforcement but actually isn't, then there's no problem. If you resist arrest from someone who says they are law enforcement but refuses to prove it, would you still be charged with resisting arrest? It seems like a catch-22 for the citizen.

throwaway-4512 6y ago
Law enforcement is wearing patches identifying their department as well as identifying badge serial number. You can see it in many of the photos of them making arrests or standing in combat fatigues on their upper arms. You can see this in the following picture but the article still has the title: "Unidentified Federal Agents Are Detaining Protesters in Portland" https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/103/7d8/36268f7317b3d89f028b34d88ac4725d66-portland-troops.rhorizontal.w700.jpg https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/103/7d8/36268f7317b3d89f028b... https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/unidentified-federal-agents-detaining-protesters-in-portland.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/unidentified-federal...
- c17r 6y ago
  And how do you see that when four of them tackle you to the ground, hit you with nightsticks, and put you in zip tie handcuffs? Are you supposed to lightly resist and yell “show me your shoulders!”
  - throwaway-4512 6y ago
    A better question is, when the video of all these "unidentified" arrests occur, why does no one look at the footage that is ubiquitous on arrests done by federal law enforcement and does any kind of basic research? Isn't it the job of reporters and journalists to do their homework? Why is no one asking in good faith why federal law enforcement might feel like they need to take these kinds of actions? Police have been being doxxed for weeks now. "Protestors" show up at the houses of local officials across the country and graffiti, vandalize, and threaten officials. In the case of Mayor Durkin of Seattle, she is a former prosecutor who will always live under the threat of being attacked and killed and these people doxxed her anyways. Why does no one discuss how the local DA refuses to prosecute and forces the release of people who unilaterally attack police? Be fair and recognize that there are many people who are attempting to gaslight through social media.
    - ugexe 6y ago
      Can you answer the original question without trying to deflect it with an unrelated question?
      - bJGVygG7MQVF8c 6y ago
        Can you read the response a little more closely and understand that the original question is poorly premised? Or are you that spergy that you need someone else to do the work of providing discursive guard-rails for you at every turn. Asking for a friend.
        ugexe 6y ago
        So can you answer the original question when you are done taking it so personally for whatever reason?
    - hkt 6y ago
      I'm wondering if relations between the DA and police have broken down so badly the DA sees the police as essentially unreliable. If they have so little confidence in police arrests, it is time for police reform.
    - c17r 6y ago
      As someone already responded, you ducked, dodged, and dived out of answering my question. A group of people in camo come running up. It doesn’t say POLICE or DHS or SWAT or anything in giant letters on their front, back, or helmet. What are people supposed to do? Ask? They refuse to identify themselves. Are you going to let yourself be restrained and taken away by people you don’t know? Impersonation of a law enforcement officer is a huge crime. Because citizens need to know. I would fight tooth n nail any added on “resisting arrest” or “assault of an officer” in these circumstances. Look at the Breonna Taylor incident. Police executed a no knock warrant close it midnight. Ms. Taylor’s, not knowing what was happening, boyfriend opened fire. Police returned fire. She got killed. The boyfriend is charge with crimes against the police. Worse is the fact the cops were at the wrong house.
    - 6y ago
  - bendbro 6y ago
    I would probably resist and get beaten up a bit more by the officers. And then I would be hauled away to jail, read my rights and interrogated, and later have my day in court. Justice is served. That said, what is and isn't a crime, and the punishment doled out for crimes (like resisting arrest when you are unsure they are police) is worth criticism. I don't think these protestors necessarily deserve felonies. But I haven't really seen people criticizing this; they seem more shocked that officers can enforce law with arrests and riot control.
    - c17r 6y ago
      Should quantify “beaten up a bit more” since peeps are having bones broken as well as losing eyesight from “less than lethal” shotgun rounds. Great, you got your day in court. But you’re handicapped for life. If the officer’s can’t handle extra attention caused by blatantly identifying themselves as officers, they should pick a new profession. Because what they are doing now is just escalating an already bad situation.
  - croutonwagon 6y ago
    How is that any different from when nypd is effecting an arrest in a similar scenario?
    - c17r 6y ago
      Because the police wear badges and flak jackets that say POLICE on them and they are in a vehicle with POLICE in very large letters. And that’s also why impersonation of an officer is a huge offense. Citizens need to know that person is legit. And this is why no knock warrants are a scourge to society. Someone smashes your door down while you’re asleep, you respond with extreme prejudice. And don’t say “well you shouldn’t have been doing something bad” because I’ll point out Breonna Taylor where the cops no knocked the wrong door, so of course the boyfriend assumed someone was breaking in.
      - croutonwagon 6y ago
        Yes. But these are the same. The have plate carriers with police on them. Patches that ID their department and have personally identifiable information. The main difference is they are using multicam instead of black for the color. And the location of the id informatikn is on a shoulder instead of their breast (given plate carriers) Sure they are using rentals/unmarked cars but they arent disappearing these people or denying them attorneys or violating habeas corpus Heres an example http://www.efreenews.com/storage/posts/July2020/0b57937515a7f1325c2076f20152be18.jpg http://www.efreenews.com/storage/posts/July2020/0b57937515a7...
bendbro 6y ago
I totally agree that officers should better identify themselves. But I disagree that the actions of federal officers can be conflated with "tyranny", "atrocities", "overreach", "abduction", and "waging war" as has been done in this thread. It's called policing: criticize it as such.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- KozmoNau7 6y ago
  Unidentifiable federal officers with no markings on their combat uniforms, who refuse to identify themselves as federal officers when asked, taking protestors by force and driving them away in unmarked rental vans is an unaccountable authoritarian show of force, it is not merely policing.
  - dgellow 6y ago
    Could that be a result of Trump declaring antifa a terrorist group? Because that sounds like what the US does against terrorist bodies. The difference is that it is now on US soil . Could it be for example that because of the patriot act (or another set of law) once a group is designed by the government as “terrorist” then they lose part of their rights and can be treated as badly as wanted by the police force? That’s what I understood happened post 9/11, not with the police but with CIA and FBI. I’m wondering if some people in the US government are using such an excuse to internally justify their actions. As a complete outsider, what I see from actions from the unidentifiable armed police could somehow match what the CIA and their “contractors” did during the 2000-2010 decade. I’m just thinking out loud here, I may clearly be off. But that’s something that always terrifies me when reading about US laws passed after 9/11, the potential for abuse against citizens is completely crazy.
  - bendbro 6y ago
    I partially agree. I think it is definitely an authoritarian show of force, but I believe it is accountable, as the outcome of the arrested should be public record. And as an accountable, authoritarian show of force, they are working as intended. I would be open to debating whether those methods of arrest should be used: I lean toward yes, and don't see them as anything similar to brownshirts or secret police, as these federal police merely arrest on probably cause, rather than affect punishment on false pretenses. I would also be open to arguments about whether the federal police should conduct operations outside the grounds of their property, which I have heard others say has happened. I lean toward yes.

throwaway-4512 6y ago

Law enforcement is wearing patches identifying their department as well as identifying badge serial number. You can see it in many of the photos of them making arrests or standing in combat fatigues on their upper arms. You can see this in the following picture but the article still has the title: "Unidentified Federal Agents Are Detaining Protesters in Portland" https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/103/7d8/36268f7317b3d89f028b34d88ac4725d66-portland-troops.rhorizontal.w700.jpg https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/103/7d8/36268f7317b3d89f028b... https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/unidentified-federal-agents-detaining-protesters-in-portland.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/unidentified-federal...

c17r 6y ago
And how do you see that when four of them tackle you to the ground, hit you with nightsticks, and put you in zip tie handcuffs? Are you supposed to lightly resist and yell “show me your shoulders!”
- throwaway-4512 6y ago
  A better question is, when the video of all these "unidentified" arrests occur, why does no one look at the footage that is ubiquitous on arrests done by federal law enforcement and does any kind of basic research? Isn't it the job of reporters and journalists to do their homework? Why is no one asking in good faith why federal law enforcement might feel like they need to take these kinds of actions? Police have been being doxxed for weeks now. "Protestors" show up at the houses of local officials across the country and graffiti, vandalize, and threaten officials. In the case of Mayor Durkin of Seattle, she is a former prosecutor who will always live under the threat of being attacked and killed and these people doxxed her anyways. Why does no one discuss how the local DA refuses to prosecute and forces the release of people who unilaterally attack police? Be fair and recognize that there are many people who are attempting to gaslight through social media.
  - ugexe 6y ago
    Can you answer the original question without trying to deflect it with an unrelated question?
    - bJGVygG7MQVF8c 6y ago
      Can you read the response a little more closely and understand that the original question is poorly premised? Or are you that spergy that you need someone else to do the work of providing discursive guard-rails for you at every turn. Asking for a friend.
      - ugexe 6y ago
        So can you answer the original question when you are done taking it so personally for whatever reason?
  - hkt 6y ago
    I'm wondering if relations between the DA and police have broken down so badly the DA sees the police as essentially unreliable. If they have so little confidence in police arrests, it is time for police reform.
  - c17r 6y ago
    As someone already responded, you ducked, dodged, and dived out of answering my question. A group of people in camo come running up. It doesn’t say POLICE or DHS or SWAT or anything in giant letters on their front, back, or helmet. What are people supposed to do? Ask? They refuse to identify themselves. Are you going to let yourself be restrained and taken away by people you don’t know? Impersonation of a law enforcement officer is a huge crime. Because citizens need to know. I would fight tooth n nail any added on “resisting arrest” or “assault of an officer” in these circumstances. Look at the Breonna Taylor incident. Police executed a no knock warrant close it midnight. Ms. Taylor’s, not knowing what was happening, boyfriend opened fire. Police returned fire. She got killed. The boyfriend is charge with crimes against the police. Worse is the fact the cops were at the wrong house.
  - 6y ago
- bendbro 6y ago
  I would probably resist and get beaten up a bit more by the officers. And then I would be hauled away to jail, read my rights and interrogated, and later have my day in court. Justice is served. That said, what is and isn't a crime, and the punishment doled out for crimes (like resisting arrest when you are unsure they are police) is worth criticism. I don't think these protestors necessarily deserve felonies. But I haven't really seen people criticizing this; they seem more shocked that officers can enforce law with arrests and riot control.
  - c17r 6y ago
    Should quantify “beaten up a bit more” since peeps are having bones broken as well as losing eyesight from “less than lethal” shotgun rounds. Great, you got your day in court. But you’re handicapped for life. If the officer’s can’t handle extra attention caused by blatantly identifying themselves as officers, they should pick a new profession. Because what they are doing now is just escalating an already bad situation.
- croutonwagon 6y ago
  How is that any different from when nypd is effecting an arrest in a similar scenario?
  - c17r 6y ago
    Because the police wear badges and flak jackets that say POLICE on them and they are in a vehicle with POLICE in very large letters. And that’s also why impersonation of an officer is a huge offense. Citizens need to know that person is legit. And this is why no knock warrants are a scourge to society. Someone smashes your door down while you’re asleep, you respond with extreme prejudice. And don’t say “well you shouldn’t have been doing something bad” because I’ll point out Breonna Taylor where the cops no knocked the wrong door, so of course the boyfriend assumed someone was breaking in.
    - croutonwagon 6y ago
      Yes. But these are the same. The have plate carriers with police on them. Patches that ID their department and have personally identifiable information. The main difference is they are using multicam instead of black for the color. And the location of the id informatikn is on a shoulder instead of their breast (given plate carriers) Sure they are using rentals/unmarked cars but they arent disappearing these people or denying them attorneys or violating habeas corpus Heres an example http://www.efreenews.com/storage/posts/July2020/0b57937515a7f1325c2076f20152be18.jpg http://www.efreenews.com/storage/posts/July2020/0b57937515a7...

bendbro 6y ago

I totally agree that officers should better identify themselves. But I disagree that the actions of federal officers can be conflated with "tyranny", "atrocities", "overreach", "abduction", and "waging war" as has been done in this thread. It's called policing: criticize it as such.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
KozmoNau7 6y ago
Unidentifiable federal officers with no markings on their combat uniforms, who refuse to identify themselves as federal officers when asked, taking protestors by force and driving them away in unmarked rental vans is an unaccountable authoritarian show of force, it is not merely policing.
- dgellow 6y ago
  Could that be a result of Trump declaring antifa a terrorist group? Because that sounds like what the US does against terrorist bodies. The difference is that it is now on US soil . Could it be for example that because of the patriot act (or another set of law) once a group is designed by the government as “terrorist” then they lose part of their rights and can be treated as badly as wanted by the police force? That’s what I understood happened post 9/11, not with the police but with CIA and FBI. I’m wondering if some people in the US government are using such an excuse to internally justify their actions. As a complete outsider, what I see from actions from the unidentifiable armed police could somehow match what the CIA and their “contractors” did during the 2000-2010 decade. I’m just thinking out loud here, I may clearly be off. But that’s something that always terrifies me when reading about US laws passed after 9/11, the potential for abuse against citizens is completely crazy.
- bendbro 6y ago
  I partially agree. I think it is definitely an authoritarian show of force, but I believe it is accountable, as the outcome of the arrested should be public record. And as an accountable, authoritarian show of force, they are working as intended. I would be open to debating whether those methods of arrest should be used: I lean toward yes, and don't see them as anything similar to brownshirts or secret police, as these federal police merely arrest on probably cause, rather than affect punishment on false pretenses. I would also be open to arguments about whether the federal police should conduct operations outside the grounds of their property, which I have heard others say has happened. I lean toward yes.