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It looks really cool and useful, but is it ethical? I find it a bit creepy that someone could watch me use a site.

jedberg 6y ago
I'm curious as to why you think it is unethical? How do you feel about physical stores that use video cameras? That seems like the most equivalent thing in the real world to me.
- gruez 6y ago
  There's no expectation of privacy because you're in public. Also, the security cameras are visible and there are possibly signs informing you of this. I have yet to see a "your actions are being recorded for product improvement purposes" warning on a website. Or maybe I did, but I tuned it out because it got buried in the standard cookie warnings.
  - XCSme 6y ago
    Cameras are usually pretty well hidden. And isn't a website you don't own a public place? Do you expect Google not to track what you do on their site?
    - gruez 6y ago
      >Cameras are usually pretty well hidden. Can you link to some examples of some "well hidden" cameras at a major retailer? Most retailers don't bother to hide their cameras, so they're just kinda lying out there. They're not overtly obvious, but if you know where to look (eg. ceilings), you can find them. >And isn't a website you don't own a public place? Not really, it's public in the sense that anyone can access it, but it's also private in the sense that all your activities are instanced and not visible to anyone else. >Do you expect Google not to track what you do on their site? Facebook got flak a few years back when it was revealed that they were surreptitiously recording everything you typed when you were creating a post, even before you hit submit[1]. Clearly the average person doesn't expect that their activities to be recorded 24/7. [1] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2525227/Facebook-tracks-type-DONT-post-update-comment.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2525227/Face...
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  It is widely understood that public places use video surveillance, and in most cases you can see the cameras themselves. It is not widely understood that websites can essentially point a camera at your browser tab and you can’t see that camera.
- ReactiveJelly 6y ago
  I am opposed to the Gorgon Stare project too. Reluctantly putting up with one terrible thing does not mean I endorse even more terrible things.
nerdponx 6y ago
Hotjar has offered this for years. And no I do not think it is ethical, even though it can be legitimately very useful for product and UX teams.
- XCSme 6y ago
  Why do you think it's not ethical? When you go in any shop around the world there are cameras recording you. Do consider that to be ethical because the main purpose of the cameras is security? What if they actually use the recorded video to improve shop layout, product placements and increase sales?
  - ReactiveJelly 6y ago
    If it's for security, they should delete the recordings after a while, and only look at them if they need evidence of a crime. I can't believe that of any given shop, but if I could believe it, I could be okay with it. If it's not for security, then they probably look at the recordings whenever they want, never delete them, and have no auditing or oversight of who is looking at them. That's the theoretical difference. It's the difference between accidentally running over a deer on the highway now and then, and going deer hunting. If I benefit from the deer's death, I have an incentive to make life much much harder for the deer. If I were a deer I would consider hunting and accidents totally different.
  - kofejnik 6y ago
    We are not in the shop
    - XCSme 6y ago
      What if it's an ecommerce site? They can already see what products you request from the server, how long you look at each product, if you add to cart, etc. Do you consider that analytics data in general is not ethical?
the_arun 6y ago
It can be made ethical if we state at a visible location in the site that - "your actions are recorded for improving experience of the site" Or such message. So users know, they are being recorded. Just like we see similar messages while we are recorded in a shopping mall.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  “Actions” typically refer to things as clicks/page navigation or button presses. The majority of people don’t expect (and don’t even know) that sites can record mouse movements and unsubmitted keyboard input.
- jeroenhd 6y ago
  In my opinion, only if there's a popup before the recording begins and there's an option of opting out. I don't find "You're being recorded by the way" to be a very welcoming indicator when I reach a website. If you ask, you may get consent, but if you just start recording you'll probably just end up in adblockers or people will leave your website. As far as I know, where I'm from the warning about cameras in stores needs to be visible before you actually enter the field of vision. I'm sure stores don't care much about privacy, but the law and, in my opinion, ethics still say you should be given fair warning before you are recorded.
  - ReactiveJelly 6y ago
    If recording hasn't begun yet, then it's really an opt-in. Too many sites do the unethical thing first and then say "Hey, friendly warning :) :) :) We already did something you don't like :)" Opt-ins should be the standard. Not despite the fact that they result in less data, but because of it.
mahesh_rm 6y ago
Thank you for the feedback. As a user of Hotjar and FullStory myself, indeed I find it creepy (albeit very helpful in order to come up with a better experience) to browse through users sessions on my/my clients website. And this is indeed one of the reasons why I started working on SessionForward: as for my answer above, eventually I want neural network models to process data from Replays and Heatmaps PMs and Devs to just receive notifications with actionable insights on how to improve their pages' user experience.

I'm curious as to why you think it is unethical? How do you feel about physical stores that use video cameras? That seems like the most equivalent thing in the real world to me.

gruez 6y ago
There's no expectation of privacy because you're in public. Also, the security cameras are visible and there are possibly signs informing you of this. I have yet to see a "your actions are being recorded for product improvement purposes" warning on a website. Or maybe I did, but I tuned it out because it got buried in the standard cookie warnings.
- XCSme 6y ago
  Cameras are usually pretty well hidden. And isn't a website you don't own a public place? Do you expect Google not to track what you do on their site?
  - gruez 6y ago
    >Cameras are usually pretty well hidden. Can you link to some examples of some "well hidden" cameras at a major retailer? Most retailers don't bother to hide their cameras, so they're just kinda lying out there. They're not overtly obvious, but if you know where to look (eg. ceilings), you can find them. >And isn't a website you don't own a public place? Not really, it's public in the sense that anyone can access it, but it's also private in the sense that all your activities are instanced and not visible to anyone else. >Do you expect Google not to track what you do on their site? Facebook got flak a few years back when it was revealed that they were surreptitiously recording everything you typed when you were creating a post, even before you hit submit[1]. Clearly the average person doesn't expect that their activities to be recorded 24/7. [1] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2525227/Facebook-tracks-type-DONT-post-update-comment.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2525227/Face...
Nextgrid 6y ago
It is widely understood that public places use video surveillance, and in most cases you can see the cameras themselves. It is not widely understood that websites can essentially point a camera at your browser tab and you can’t see that camera.
ReactiveJelly 6y ago
I am opposed to the Gorgon Stare project too. Reluctantly putting up with one terrible thing does not mean I endorse even more terrible things.

nerdponx 6y ago

Hotjar has offered this for years. And no I do not think it is ethical, even though it can be legitimately very useful for product and UX teams.

XCSme 6y ago
Why do you think it's not ethical? When you go in any shop around the world there are cameras recording you. Do consider that to be ethical because the main purpose of the cameras is security? What if they actually use the recorded video to improve shop layout, product placements and increase sales?
- ReactiveJelly 6y ago
  If it's for security, they should delete the recordings after a while, and only look at them if they need evidence of a crime. I can't believe that of any given shop, but if I could believe it, I could be okay with it. If it's not for security, then they probably look at the recordings whenever they want, never delete them, and have no auditing or oversight of who is looking at them. That's the theoretical difference. It's the difference between accidentally running over a deer on the highway now and then, and going deer hunting. If I benefit from the deer's death, I have an incentive to make life much much harder for the deer. If I were a deer I would consider hunting and accidents totally different.
- kofejnik 6y ago
  We are not in the shop
  - XCSme 6y ago
    What if it's an ecommerce site? They can already see what products you request from the server, how long you look at each product, if you add to cart, etc. Do you consider that analytics data in general is not ethical?

the_arun 6y ago

It can be made ethical if we state at a visible location in the site that - "your actions are recorded for improving experience of the site" Or such message. So users know, they are being recorded. Just like we see similar messages while we are recorded in a shopping mall.

Nextgrid 6y ago
“Actions” typically refer to things as clicks/page navigation or button presses. The majority of people don’t expect (and don’t even know) that sites can record mouse movements and unsubmitted keyboard input.
jeroenhd 6y ago
In my opinion, only if there's a popup before the recording begins and there's an option of opting out. I don't find "You're being recorded by the way" to be a very welcoming indicator when I reach a website. If you ask, you may get consent, but if you just start recording you'll probably just end up in adblockers or people will leave your website. As far as I know, where I'm from the warning about cameras in stores needs to be visible before you actually enter the field of vision. I'm sure stores don't care much about privacy, but the law and, in my opinion, ethics still say you should be given fair warning before you are recorded.
- ReactiveJelly 6y ago
  If recording hasn't begun yet, then it's really an opt-in. Too many sites do the unethical thing first and then say "Hey, friendly warning :) :) :) We already did something you don't like :)" Opt-ins should be the standard. Not despite the fact that they result in less data, but because of it.

mahesh_rm 6y ago

Thank you for the feedback. As a user of Hotjar and FullStory myself, indeed I find it creepy (albeit very helpful in order to come up with a better experience) to browse through users sessions on my/my clients website. And this is indeed one of the reasons why I started working on SessionForward: as for my answer above, eventually I want neural network models to process data from Replays and Heatmaps PMs and Devs to just receive notifications with actionable insights on how to improve their pages' user experience.