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This is still very shallow thinking. Every company that views tech as a cost rather than a way to generate revenue will invest in these contracts/offshore centr

This is still very shallow thinking. Every company that views tech as a cost rather than a way to generate revenue will invest in these contracts/offshore centres, and that is the noose round their neck. In most cases, but not all, hiring consultants suggests you don't understand enough about your own business to manage it yourself (insert image of senior executive trying to work out the Zoom so they can check their staff aren't slacking off like their damn nephew, useless kid, thinks he knows everything). The cost advantages really aren't that large either...sure, the staff cost less but they hire 10x more staff, they are slower, and when the requirements change you are done for. Btw, some places are very good for outsourcing (Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Belarus) but India is definitely not one of them imo...which is bizarre given how many engineers, prevalence of English, etc.

learc83 6y ago
>Btw, some places are very good for outsourcing (Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Belarus) I've had just as many problems working with outsourcing firms in Russia and Ukraine as I have with Indian firms. And I've had the same problems working for companies that tried to hire very cheap US based developers in house. I think the problem occurs whenever developer cost is your primary metric.
- coldcode 6y ago
  It's not where you outsource to its the mere fact of paying people who don't work for you or care for more than billable hours (at least the leadership if not the consultants too). You can get that down the street too, though it's easier to check up on what's going on. Having employees you vetted/hired overseas is way different than hiring some firm to provide bodies who are unknown to you and come/go all the time.
- hogFeast 6y ago
  True. My point was more to highlight that I don't actually have a problem with work being outsourced to another location. You are correct, when cost is the issue that creates incentives that tend not to work.
DrJokepu 6y ago
I had extremely good experiences with opening a subsidiary office in Sofia, Bulgaria (not outsourcing, but legit part of the company.) Code quality went way up compared to what was developed in the US/UK, somewhat less expensive (but not that much, like you said), and most importantly and perhaps also the most surprisingly, the attitude of the young kids working there is way more positive and well-adjusted that what we see when hiring in the US/UK (especially in the UK). At this point it's not even about the money, it's just that they're more pleasant people to work with.
- MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
  Can confirm, eastern europeans are above average regarding technical skills, though sometimes lacking on the social side. If I had to outsource, I‘d go east. They’ve got some amazing talent. I would avoid southern europe and india. And yes, I have direct experience with all of those.
  - sumedh 6y ago
    > I would avoid southern europe and india. Were you paying good salaries?
    - MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
      The problem is not that India doesn't have good developers, they do of course. The problem is that the average is brought down by the fact that a lot of people are only getting into IT because it is their best chance at living a middle-class life, not because its something they're interested in, and the volume business model of Indian outsourcing companies. Combine that with the "just do what you're told" mentality and its not a good deal, or only for certain projects. The problems with southern Europe are similar. Hierarchical business culture, placing high value on keeping appearances, different work-life-balance mindset. Some countries produce world-class software that people around the world use, some don't, and its not hard to see why. Its not coincidence.
      - 6y ago
diehunde 6y ago
Depends on the project. People like to say "consultant" but most of the are just staff augmentation and many of them do work that won't absorbe a lot of knowledge.
afrojack123 6y ago
Forever employee spotted. Every company that uses Shopify instead of developing their own e-commerce site considers tech as a cost. Health care insurance companies are not interested in joining the advertising, SaaS, hardware tech biz. For them IT is a cost. A mandatory cost that supports the business in the same way legal and finance do. If you took away the insurance policies but only had IT, the business wouldn't exist.
- hogFeast 6y ago
  You are thinking about cost like a middle manager. If you are using Shopify, that isn't a cost, it is an investment. It isn't like legal or finance, usually, because it is product-related and can be used to reduce prices/improve service. Health care insurance (in the US) is, ironically although not surprisingly given your obvious ineptitude, one of the all-time best examples. US administration costs are larger than most countries public health budgets. Insurers in retail lines, although not in health care, picked this up very quickly because of distribution changes in the 90s. They invest heavily into tech, and the ones that have invested most heavily are seeing the fastest top-line. It is great some people still think this way though. One of the great market inefficiencies of the last ten years was firms/investors being unable to distinguish between a cost and an investment.
  - afrojack123 6y ago
    Legal, finance, Shopify are all useless without a product to sell. Hence, costs. Your business acumen is messed up. If your product is stagnant like most financial products, importance shifts to other things like marketing, cross-selling, etc. Don't get confused between the profit center and the cost center that occurs when products are stagnant. Yes, some tech has improved things like better analytics and tracking for companies such as personalized car insurance or paperless but notice how this improves the core products features or cost. "If you are using Shopify, that isn't a cost, it is an investment. It isn't like legal or finance, usually, because it is product-related and can be used to reduce prices/improve service." No, just no. If I am Apple selling iPhones, no investment in Shopify or websites is going to help me make better iPhones. Shopify is not product-related. What you mention is a Mandatory marketing expense which is also a cost center. You either have your marketing team or you hire an external marketing agency. You mention distribution. Marketing without a product to sell is useless. Hence, costs. Insurance and other financial companies need marketing to sell. It is a mandatory expense for them. It is not their product but their product is stagnant so it matters very little. However for Facebook, marketing is their product, profit center. There are other orgs who sell marketing automation software. There it is a profit center.

learc83 6y ago

>Btw, some places are very good for outsourcing (Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Belarus) I've had just as many problems working with outsourcing firms in Russia and Ukraine as I have with Indian firms. And I've had the same problems working for companies that tried to hire very cheap US based developers in house. I think the problem occurs whenever developer cost is your primary metric.

coldcode 6y ago
It's not where you outsource to its the mere fact of paying people who don't work for you or care for more than billable hours (at least the leadership if not the consultants too). You can get that down the street too, though it's easier to check up on what's going on. Having employees you vetted/hired overseas is way different than hiring some firm to provide bodies who are unknown to you and come/go all the time.
hogFeast 6y ago
True. My point was more to highlight that I don't actually have a problem with work being outsourced to another location. You are correct, when cost is the issue that creates incentives that tend not to work.

DrJokepu 6y ago

I had extremely good experiences with opening a subsidiary office in Sofia, Bulgaria (not outsourcing, but legit part of the company.) Code quality went way up compared to what was developed in the US/UK, somewhat less expensive (but not that much, like you said), and most importantly and perhaps also the most surprisingly, the attitude of the young kids working there is way more positive and well-adjusted that what we see when hiring in the US/UK (especially in the UK). At this point it's not even about the money, it's just that they're more pleasant people to work with.

MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
Can confirm, eastern europeans are above average regarding technical skills, though sometimes lacking on the social side. If I had to outsource, I‘d go east. They’ve got some amazing talent. I would avoid southern europe and india. And yes, I have direct experience with all of those.
- sumedh 6y ago
  > I would avoid southern europe and india. Were you paying good salaries?
  - MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
    The problem is not that India doesn't have good developers, they do of course. The problem is that the average is brought down by the fact that a lot of people are only getting into IT because it is their best chance at living a middle-class life, not because its something they're interested in, and the volume business model of Indian outsourcing companies. Combine that with the "just do what you're told" mentality and its not a good deal, or only for certain projects. The problems with southern Europe are similar. Hierarchical business culture, placing high value on keeping appearances, different work-life-balance mindset. Some countries produce world-class software that people around the world use, some don't, and its not hard to see why. Its not coincidence.
    - 6y ago

diehunde 6y ago

Depends on the project. People like to say "consultant" but most of the are just staff augmentation and many of them do work that won't absorbe a lot of knowledge.

afrojack123 6y ago

Forever employee spotted. Every company that uses Shopify instead of developing their own e-commerce site considers tech as a cost. Health care insurance companies are not interested in joining the advertising, SaaS, hardware tech biz. For them IT is a cost. A mandatory cost that supports the business in the same way legal and finance do. If you took away the insurance policies but only had IT, the business wouldn't exist.

hogFeast 6y ago
You are thinking about cost like a middle manager. If you are using Shopify, that isn't a cost, it is an investment. It isn't like legal or finance, usually, because it is product-related and can be used to reduce prices/improve service. Health care insurance (in the US) is, ironically although not surprisingly given your obvious ineptitude, one of the all-time best examples. US administration costs are larger than most countries public health budgets. Insurers in retail lines, although not in health care, picked this up very quickly because of distribution changes in the 90s. They invest heavily into tech, and the ones that have invested most heavily are seeing the fastest top-line. It is great some people still think this way though. One of the great market inefficiencies of the last ten years was firms/investors being unable to distinguish between a cost and an investment.
- afrojack123 6y ago
  Legal, finance, Shopify are all useless without a product to sell. Hence, costs. Your business acumen is messed up. If your product is stagnant like most financial products, importance shifts to other things like marketing, cross-selling, etc. Don't get confused between the profit center and the cost center that occurs when products are stagnant. Yes, some tech has improved things like better analytics and tracking for companies such as personalized car insurance or paperless but notice how this improves the core products features or cost. "If you are using Shopify, that isn't a cost, it is an investment. It isn't like legal or finance, usually, because it is product-related and can be used to reduce prices/improve service." No, just no. If I am Apple selling iPhones, no investment in Shopify or websites is going to help me make better iPhones. Shopify is not product-related. What you mention is a Mandatory marketing expense which is also a cost center. You either have your marketing team or you hire an external marketing agency. You mention distribution. Marketing without a product to sell is useless. Hence, costs. Insurance and other financial companies need marketing to sell. It is a mandatory expense for them. It is not their product but their product is stagnant so it matters very little. However for Facebook, marketing is their product, profit center. There are other orgs who sell marketing automation software. There it is a profit center.