5 ms·

But the reform way hasn't worked very well, if at all, either. Not saying that means one should revolt or anything, just that America seems like it's stuck betw

But the reform way hasn't worked very well, if at all, either. Not saying that means one should revolt or anything, just that America seems like it's stuck between a rock and hard place, currently.

luckylion 6y ago
>But the reform way hasn't worked very well, if at all, either. You don't see a difference between USA, 1960 and USA, 2020?
- BoiledCabbage 6y ago
  And you know what was the cause of the largest changes between 1960 and 2020? The civil rights protests. And those protesters were disapproved of / hated by the majority of the population at the time. For upsetting the status quo - and "pushing for change to quickly". There are surveys that list this - that mirror the exact same responses that a number of people give today about BLM.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > And you know what was the cause of the largest changes between 1960 and 2020? The civil rights protests. So there was change that was achieved by non-revolutionary ways, but this time it's different? This time it needs to be riots and proclaiming autonomous zones of a weird mix of war lord justice and lawlessness? I'm not convinced.
- harimau777 6y ago
  My understanding is that inequality is much worse now than in the 60s. It also seems like back then it was much easier to have a good quality of life with a non-skilled job than it is today. However, I haven't looked into it too much so I could be mistaken.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Census data on percentage of blacks living in poverty.[1] 2018 - 23.3% 1966 - 31.1% [1]https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-poverty/historical-poverty-people.html https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-p...
    - zone411 6y ago
      Not saying that you're making it at all but there is a very common error people make when looking at the poverty stats. "The official poverty definition uses money income before taxes and does not include capital gains or noncash benefits (such as public housing, Medicaid, and food stamps)." (https://www.census.gov/topics/income-poverty/poverty/guidance/poverty-measures.html https://www.census.gov/topics/income-poverty/poverty/guidanc...) After these programs, the poverty rate is reduced by 53% (https://www.nber.org/papers/w24567.pdf https://www.nber.org/papers/w24567.pdf)
      - refurb 6y ago
        This is a good point and something I had heard before! You are correct this is before gov't transfers. I was looking more at the relative change versus arguing the numbers were absolute.
    - harimau777 6y ago
      Thanks for posting this! Good to have numbers to discuss! I'm having trouble opening the spreadsheets on my Mac. How do the numbers compare for all races? Do numbers like this factor in things like health insurance or renting versus owning a house?

But the reform way hasn't worked very well, if at all, either. Not saying that means one should revolt or anything, just that America seems like it's stuck between a rock and hard place, currently.

luckylion 6y ago

>But the reform way hasn't worked very well, if at all, either. You don't see a difference between USA, 1960 and USA, 2020?

BoiledCabbage 6y ago
And you know what was the cause of the largest changes between 1960 and 2020? The civil rights protests. And those protesters were disapproved of / hated by the majority of the population at the time. For upsetting the status quo - and "pushing for change to quickly". There are surveys that list this - that mirror the exact same responses that a number of people give today about BLM.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > And you know what was the cause of the largest changes between 1960 and 2020? The civil rights protests. So there was change that was achieved by non-revolutionary ways, but this time it's different? This time it needs to be riots and proclaiming autonomous zones of a weird mix of war lord justice and lawlessness? I'm not convinced.
harimau777 6y ago
My understanding is that inequality is much worse now than in the 60s. It also seems like back then it was much easier to have a good quality of life with a non-skilled job than it is today. However, I haven't looked into it too much so I could be mistaken.
- refurb 6y ago
  Census data on percentage of blacks living in poverty.[1] 2018 - 23.3% 1966 - 31.1% [1]https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-poverty/historical-poverty-people.html https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-p...
  - zone411 6y ago
    Not saying that you're making it at all but there is a very common error people make when looking at the poverty stats. "The official poverty definition uses money income before taxes and does not include capital gains or noncash benefits (such as public housing, Medicaid, and food stamps)." (https://www.census.gov/topics/income-poverty/poverty/guidance/poverty-measures.html https://www.census.gov/topics/income-poverty/poverty/guidanc...) After these programs, the poverty rate is reduced by 53% (https://www.nber.org/papers/w24567.pdf https://www.nber.org/papers/w24567.pdf)
    - refurb 6y ago
      This is a good point and something I had heard before! You are correct this is before gov't transfers. I was looking more at the relative change versus arguing the numbers were absolute.
  - harimau777 6y ago
    Thanks for posting this! Good to have numbers to discuss! I'm having trouble opening the spreadsheets on my Mac. How do the numbers compare for all races? Do numbers like this factor in things like health insurance or renting versus owning a house?