6 ms·

I empathize with your frustration, but you're letting your personal experience override logic. You've made a simple logical error: a study claiming that people

by gfodor 6y ago

I empathize with your frustration, but you're letting your personal experience override logic. You've made a simple logical error: a study claiming that people who have goals can fend off depression does not imply that those with depression have it because they do not have goals. It means that some people who don't have goals, but do have depression, may remedy it by getting goals. But not everyone. If the research above is resulting in psychiatrists becoming lazy, it's because they're making the same logical error you are making. So in that sense, you should avoid doing so, since the kind of error you are making is the very thing which leads to the behavior you've experienced. The proper response (by you, and psychiatrists) is to conclude that trying to encourage goal formation in those with depression seems wise, and will help some, but many (like yourself) will not benefit. Nor should we invert causation and assume the reason people have depression is due to lack of goals, much like if we determined that eating a specific kind of food helped prevent cancer meant that those who for whatever reason didn't have that food in their diet were somehow causing their own cancer by neglecting to eat it.

podgaj 6y ago
That was my point. This study tells us nothing. The problem is not with people or the doctors, it is with these idiotic studies. From the study: "People who showed more goal persistence and optimism during the first assessment in the mid-1990s had greater reductions in depression, anxiety and panic disorders across the 18 years, according to the authors. And throughout those years, people who began with fewer mental health problems showed more increased perseverance toward life goals and were better at focusing on the positive side of unfortunate events, said Zainal." and they conclude with your inverted causation: "Our findings suggest that people can improve their mental health by raising or maintaining high levels of tenacity, resilience and optimism,” she said. “Aspiring toward personal and career goals can make people feel like their lives have meaning. On the other hand, disengaging from striving toward those aims or having a cynical attitude can have high mental health costs.” So people who are not depressed do not easily get depressed. Really? That is the ground breaking work? Re read that part, again and again, and tell me where my logic is wrong. They are saying correlation is causal.
- saas_sam 6y ago
  What do you think is more reasonable, that your emotional commitments to this subject are distorting your read of the article, or that the American Psychological Association knows less than you do?
  - R0b0t1 6y ago
    Given our recent experience with doctors killing people by putting them on ventilators when they could have put them on O2 I think blind faith in the APA is a bad idea, though I do generally see psychiatry and psychology as more professional than other fields of medicine.
    - anbende 6y ago
      Right, but this was a study conducted by the American Psychological Association, an organization that has literally nothing to do with the medical practices you spoke about.
      - R0b0t1 6y ago
        The psychiatric equivalent is overprescribing antipsychotics because it makes people easier to manage. The general medical example was meant to be an impactful current example (though overprescription of antipsychotics is still happening).
  - podgaj 6y ago
    Appeal to authority much? I just told you they were wrong about me during my 30 years of treatment. They thought I had a mood disorder but I had a metabolic disorder. so in this case, yes, they knew less than I did.
    - cpncrunch 6y ago
      Your condition only affects 1 in 500,000 to 1 in 1 million newborns, whereas major depression has a 20% lifetime prevalence in the USA. For anxiety disorders, the rate is 30%.
hrktb 6y ago
To me the article is not far from parent's reading. For instance these quotes: > We wanted to understand what specific coping strategies would be helpful in reducing rates of depression, anxiety and panic attacks. > Our findings suggest that people can improve their mental health by raising or maintaining high levels of tenacity, resilience and optimism,” she said. “Aspiring toward personal and career goals can make people feel like their lives have meaning. On the other hand, disengaging from striving toward those aims or having a cynical attitude can have high mental health costs.” The second quote is really not far from presenting lack of perseverence or negativity as an active choice, putting the onus on the patient.
- anbende 6y ago
  The second quote does not imply that all depressed people are such because they are lacking perseverance. There are several issues with this interpretation. The first is that because something is on average true does not mean it is always true. There are cases where perseverance does not help depression. There are many where it does. On average it helps, which is the claim. Next, it it is not fair to presume that because something helps, that it has a causal relationship with that thing. Most people feel less depressed (temporarily) if they take a dopamine agonist. This does not necessarily mean that their depression was caused by a lack of dopamine, only that dopamine helps. In the same way, focusing on goals will help a lot of depressed people. Influence does not imply causality. And the last part of that statement about disengaging from goals and having a cynical attitude are also facts not conjecture. Negative thinking and disengaging from goal pursuit are linked to mood decline in virtually all people. This does not imply that people have full control over their thinking and goal pursuit or even that there aren't some people for whom such control is next to impossible. As clinicians, we teach clients to work with what they have and make decisions that will help them. This study outlines some things that are typically helpful. It does not say that they will be helpful or possible for everyone.
  - podgaj 6y ago
    > This study outlines some things that are typically helpful. It does not say that they will be helpful or possible for everyone. Agreed, but what do you do if it does not help them. THAT is the problem.
R0b0t1 6y ago
No, he's interpreting the study perfectly well. The blame lies squarely with "trusted professionals" who can't think outside the box. Many psychiatrists commit the same fallacy you are describing, just in the other direction, which is what he's saying.
JamesBarney 6y ago
> It means that some people who don't have goals, but do have depression, may remedy it by getting goals. But not everyone. It really doesn't show this at all, you are misreading the study because the author of the article misrepresents it. Very few correlation studies turn into causation studies. Even when we have entire subfields dedicated to it. See amyloid beta. Other possibilities "goals are protective against anxiety and depression but not changeable" "other factors increase goal driven behavior and protect against anxiety and depression" "goal driven behavior is protective but not curative of anxiety and depression" "goal driven behavior increases likelihood that individual gets treated for anxiety or depression" Any of which would mean that increasing goal driven behavior would not help with anxiety or depression.
perl4ever 6y ago
What if, bear with me here, depression causes a lack of perseverance toward life goals.

by gfodor 6y ago

podgaj 6y ago

That was my point. This study tells us nothing. The problem is not with people or the doctors, it is with these idiotic studies. From the study: "People who showed more goal persistence and optimism during the first assessment in the mid-1990s had greater reductions in depression, anxiety and panic disorders across the 18 years, according to the authors. And throughout those years, people who began with fewer mental health problems showed more increased perseverance toward life goals and were better at focusing on the positive side of unfortunate events, said Zainal." and they conclude with your inverted causation: "Our findings suggest that people can improve their mental health by raising or maintaining high levels of tenacity, resilience and optimism,” she said. “Aspiring toward personal and career goals can make people feel like their lives have meaning. On the other hand, disengaging from striving toward those aims or having a cynical attitude can have high mental health costs.” So people who are not depressed do not easily get depressed. Really? That is the ground breaking work? Re read that part, again and again, and tell me where my logic is wrong. They are saying correlation is causal.

saas_sam 6y ago
What do you think is more reasonable, that your emotional commitments to this subject are distorting your read of the article, or that the American Psychological Association knows less than you do?
- R0b0t1 6y ago
  Given our recent experience with doctors killing people by putting them on ventilators when they could have put them on O2 I think blind faith in the APA is a bad idea, though I do generally see psychiatry and psychology as more professional than other fields of medicine.
  - anbende 6y ago
    Right, but this was a study conducted by the American Psychological Association, an organization that has literally nothing to do with the medical practices you spoke about.
    - R0b0t1 6y ago
      The psychiatric equivalent is overprescribing antipsychotics because it makes people easier to manage. The general medical example was meant to be an impactful current example (though overprescription of antipsychotics is still happening).
- podgaj 6y ago
  Appeal to authority much? I just told you they were wrong about me during my 30 years of treatment. They thought I had a mood disorder but I had a metabolic disorder. so in this case, yes, they knew less than I did.
  - cpncrunch 6y ago
    Your condition only affects 1 in 500,000 to 1 in 1 million newborns, whereas major depression has a 20% lifetime prevalence in the USA. For anxiety disorders, the rate is 30%.

hrktb 6y ago

To me the article is not far from parent's reading. For instance these quotes: > We wanted to understand what specific coping strategies would be helpful in reducing rates of depression, anxiety and panic attacks. > Our findings suggest that people can improve their mental health by raising or maintaining high levels of tenacity, resilience and optimism,” she said. “Aspiring toward personal and career goals can make people feel like their lives have meaning. On the other hand, disengaging from striving toward those aims or having a cynical attitude can have high mental health costs.” The second quote is really not far from presenting lack of perseverence or negativity as an active choice, putting the onus on the patient.

anbende 6y ago
The second quote does not imply that all depressed people are such because they are lacking perseverance. There are several issues with this interpretation. The first is that because something is on average true does not mean it is always true. There are cases where perseverance does not help depression. There are many where it does. On average it helps, which is the claim. Next, it it is not fair to presume that because something helps, that it has a causal relationship with that thing. Most people feel less depressed (temporarily) if they take a dopamine agonist. This does not necessarily mean that their depression was caused by a lack of dopamine, only that dopamine helps. In the same way, focusing on goals will help a lot of depressed people. Influence does not imply causality. And the last part of that statement about disengaging from goals and having a cynical attitude are also facts not conjecture. Negative thinking and disengaging from goal pursuit are linked to mood decline in virtually all people. This does not imply that people have full control over their thinking and goal pursuit or even that there aren't some people for whom such control is next to impossible. As clinicians, we teach clients to work with what they have and make decisions that will help them. This study outlines some things that are typically helpful. It does not say that they will be helpful or possible for everyone.
- podgaj 6y ago
  > This study outlines some things that are typically helpful. It does not say that they will be helpful or possible for everyone. Agreed, but what do you do if it does not help them. THAT is the problem.

R0b0t1 6y ago

No, he's interpreting the study perfectly well. The blame lies squarely with "trusted professionals" who can't think outside the box. Many psychiatrists commit the same fallacy you are describing, just in the other direction, which is what he's saying.

JamesBarney 6y ago

> It means that some people who don't have goals, but do have depression, may remedy it by getting goals. But not everyone. It really doesn't show this at all, you are misreading the study because the author of the article misrepresents it. Very few correlation studies turn into causation studies. Even when we have entire subfields dedicated to it. See amyloid beta. Other possibilities "goals are protective against anxiety and depression but not changeable" "other factors increase goal driven behavior and protect against anxiety and depression" "goal driven behavior is protective but not curative of anxiety and depression" "goal driven behavior increases likelihood that individual gets treated for anxiety or depression" Any of which would mean that increasing goal driven behavior would not help with anxiety or depression.

perl4ever 6y ago

What if, bear with me here, depression causes a lack of perseverance toward life goals.