5 ms·

Oh please. People are not being abducted off the street by the US government never to be seen again, they are being arrested. They are not being tortured or s

by tux1968 6y ago

Oh please. People are not being abducted off the street by the US government never to be seen again, they are being arrested. They are not being tortured or sent to a reeducation camp. They get a phone call and access to a lawyer before being tried in court. For all the faults of the US, let's not cast these current policing actions as equivalent to what is going on in HK.

contrarianmop 6y ago
Oh please, we are now debating which country is less authoritarian. Any Russian or Chinese government troll will launch similar comparisons in defence of Putin or Xi: but at least we are not doing [x]. Kidnapping is kidnapping. Some of you have gone quickly from freedom of speech and democracy to at least we only disappear people for a few days. And we only beat journalists we dont torture them. And we only persecute minorities we dont put them in camps. And we only let them rot in ghettos not gas chambers. Be serious, you are part of the problem.
- tux1968 6y ago
  You were the one who tried to compare them as equally authoritarian, and they are not -- as much as you want to convict them of the same crimes. If anyone is being arrested off the street for free speech then I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you and oppose it. If they are being arrested for violence or property damage, then I will let the courts deal with it. Being shrill and exaggerating what is going on is not helping, it is part of the problem.
  - contrarianmop 6y ago
    Yeah in the freeworld we dont kidnap people for damaging wall paint. Anyway enjoy your erosion of rights - they already deny you plenty.
    - tux1968 6y ago
      I believe that our government and corporate culture is way too authoritarian and have been speaking out against it my whole life. That does not mean that we should depart from all sense of proportionality and reason. You do us no favour by exaggerating and mischaracterizing the situation. The US government isn't kidnapping anyone off the street for damaging wall paint -- they're arresting people. If you can't see the difference and keep that simple fact straight, you hurt your own case and seem unreasonable and untrustworthy as a source. If there have been unjust arrests, then say so and make it known. But don't pretend they are kidnappings -- it sounds ridiculous on the face of it and makes you sound childish.
      - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
        I keep reading that people are being “arrested”, held for a couple hours, then released without charges. Where is any kind of justice in that?
        kergonath 6y ago
        It isn’t about justice. It’s about bullying, intimidation, and escalating protests to have scary pictures to show in politics ads.
    - wil421 6y ago
      How is being arrested kidnapping?
      - jessaustin 6y ago
        Lawful arrests are followed by swift access to the courts. The arrests under discussion aren't like that. Taking one's freedom without due process of law is precisely kidnapping.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
throwanem 6y ago
> People are not being abducted off the street by the US government never to be seen again Uh, you sure about that? The only part that's not provably false is the last five words, and how would you expect to know for sure on those?
- tux1968 6y ago
  Well I can't prove a negative, but i'm reasonably sure given history and the lack of any evidence otherwise. Do you have a link for any evidence I should know about?
  - falcolas 6y ago
    Guantanamo Bay. “Terrorists” are sent there and lose all constitutional rights while they’re there.
    - tux1968 6y ago
      If you're claiming that people from Portland are being sent to Guantanamo Bay, you're going to have to offer some evidence.
      - falcolas 6y ago
        The parent I was responding to claims there's no evidence that the US has ever "disappeared" people with no rights. My point is simply a counter to that.
        tux1968 6y ago
        No. The claim was that there is zero evidence that has happened to anyone in Portland. We're talking about how to characterize the arrests made in Portland, not US foreign policy.
  - throwanem 6y ago
    Do you have evidence that everyone so far abducted in Portland has been set free, and further such kidnappings curtailed? Or are you instead arguing that the behavior of the US federal government in this circumstance merits a presumption of innocence?
maxlybbert 6y ago
Am I the only person who remembers Pennsylvania state police using the same “kidnapping” tactic in 2009 ( http://thecollegepolitico.com/2009/09/25/the-truth-about-the-military-kidnapping-video-from-the-g-20/ http://thecollegepolitico.com/2009/09/25/the-truth-about-the... ). I’m not saying it’s a good tactic. I’m saying it’s not new.
fastaguy88 6y ago
In the famous case of the individual placed into an unmarked van by unidentified federal agents, there was no arrest, and no access to a lawyer (and no trial in court). There was only an abduction, which was over after some number of hours. If the agents were arresting people, giving them access to lawyers, and taking them to court, the issues would be very different.
- tux1968 6y ago
  Police are given the latitude, with some limitations, to arrest people legally even without charge. Importantly, they must release uncharged persons within a certain timeframe which seems to have been respected in this case. If ultimately there is no charge and the person is released, they can obviously contact a lawyer and have access to the courts. We can debate all this as a matter of public policy and law. What we should not do is sacrifice our credibility by pretending that people are being kidnapped and "disappeared" or comparing this to what is going on in HK.
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    Yes it's very important that CIA-sponsored protests be differentiated from non-CIA-sponsored protests! One is good and the other is bad!
joshribakoff 6y ago
As someone who was arrested for filming police brutality 10yrs ago: I was not given a call, I had no access to water. I was held in a fenced area of a Miami parking garage. I had to fake a medical emergency and only then did the EMT responders force the police to give me access to water. Another “inmate” also said he had a medical issue shortly thereafter and also needed water but they refused to call the ambulance. When I got out, the charges were not in the system. I spoke with numerous lawyers who advised if I pursued a complaint or lawsuit they’d be likely to retaliate and advised for my own safety not to pursue it.
mijoharas 6y ago
They are claiming that they are not arresting people[0][2] when they are, which is apparently illegal[2][1] [0] “They did take them to an area that was safe for both the officers and the individual to do the questioning,” he said. “It’s not a custodial arrest. We need to question this individual to find out what their role was in this laser-pointing.” Eventually, Cline said, the protester was released “because [DHS] did not have what they needed.” [1] In Dunaway v. New York the Supreme Court considered whether police violated the Fourth and 14th Amendments when–lacking probable cause–they took a person into custody, transported him to a police station and detained him for interrogation. Once again, six justices found that police violated the U.S. Constitution with such actions. Per that landmark case: [T]he detention of petitioner was in important respects indistinguishable from a traditional arrest. Petitioner was not questioned briefly where he was found. Instead, he was taken from a neighbor’s home to a police car, transported to a police station, and placed in an interrogation room. [2] https://lawandcrime.com/legal-analysis/two-dhs-officials-apparently-just-admitted-their-troops-have-been-violating-the-constitution/ https://lawandcrime.com/legal-analysis/two-dhs-officials-app...
- tux1968 6y ago
  This is good information. Again, doesn't suggest that this is kidnapping at all or akin to what's going on in HK. You are addressing this issue the way it should be approached, rationally and with evidence.
TheCoelacanth 6y ago
If you get pulled into an unmarked van by someone who is not wearing a police badge. That is an abduction, not an arrest, regardless of whether the person doing it happens to belong to a law enforcement organization.

contrarianmop 6y ago

Oh please, we are now debating which country is less authoritarian. Any Russian or Chinese government troll will launch similar comparisons in defence of Putin or Xi: but at least we are not doing [x]. Kidnapping is kidnapping. Some of you have gone quickly from freedom of speech and democracy to at least we only disappear people for a few days. And we only beat journalists we dont torture them. And we only persecute minorities we dont put them in camps. And we only let them rot in ghettos not gas chambers. Be serious, you are part of the problem.

tux1968 6y ago
You were the one who tried to compare them as equally authoritarian, and they are not -- as much as you want to convict them of the same crimes. If anyone is being arrested off the street for free speech then I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you and oppose it. If they are being arrested for violence or property damage, then I will let the courts deal with it. Being shrill and exaggerating what is going on is not helping, it is part of the problem.
- contrarianmop 6y ago
  Yeah in the freeworld we dont kidnap people for damaging wall paint. Anyway enjoy your erosion of rights - they already deny you plenty.
  - tux1968 6y ago
    I believe that our government and corporate culture is way too authoritarian and have been speaking out against it my whole life. That does not mean that we should depart from all sense of proportionality and reason. You do us no favour by exaggerating and mischaracterizing the situation. The US government isn't kidnapping anyone off the street for damaging wall paint -- they're arresting people. If you can't see the difference and keep that simple fact straight, you hurt your own case and seem unreasonable and untrustworthy as a source. If there have been unjust arrests, then say so and make it known. But don't pretend they are kidnappings -- it sounds ridiculous on the face of it and makes you sound childish.
    - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
      I keep reading that people are being “arrested”, held for a couple hours, then released without charges. Where is any kind of justice in that?
      - kergonath 6y ago
        It isn’t about justice. It’s about bullying, intimidation, and escalating protests to have scary pictures to show in politics ads.
  - wil421 6y ago
    How is being arrested kidnapping?
    - jessaustin 6y ago
      Lawful arrests are followed by swift access to the courts. The arrests under discussion aren't like that. Taking one's freedom without due process of law is precisely kidnapping.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]

throwanem 6y ago

> People are not being abducted off the street by the US government never to be seen again Uh, you sure about that? The only part that's not provably false is the last five words, and how would you expect to know for sure on those?

tux1968 6y ago
Well I can't prove a negative, but i'm reasonably sure given history and the lack of any evidence otherwise. Do you have a link for any evidence I should know about?
- falcolas 6y ago
  Guantanamo Bay. “Terrorists” are sent there and lose all constitutional rights while they’re there.
  - tux1968 6y ago
    If you're claiming that people from Portland are being sent to Guantanamo Bay, you're going to have to offer some evidence.
    - falcolas 6y ago
      The parent I was responding to claims there's no evidence that the US has ever "disappeared" people with no rights. My point is simply a counter to that.
      - tux1968 6y ago
        No. The claim was that there is zero evidence that has happened to anyone in Portland. We're talking about how to characterize the arrests made in Portland, not US foreign policy.
- throwanem 6y ago
  Do you have evidence that everyone so far abducted in Portland has been set free, and further such kidnappings curtailed? Or are you instead arguing that the behavior of the US federal government in this circumstance merits a presumption of innocence?

maxlybbert 6y ago

Am I the only person who remembers Pennsylvania state police using the same “kidnapping” tactic in 2009 ( http://thecollegepolitico.com/2009/09/25/the-truth-about-the-military-kidnapping-video-from-the-g-20/ http://thecollegepolitico.com/2009/09/25/the-truth-about-the... ). I’m not saying it’s a good tactic. I’m saying it’s not new.

fastaguy88 6y ago

In the famous case of the individual placed into an unmarked van by unidentified federal agents, there was no arrest, and no access to a lawyer (and no trial in court). There was only an abduction, which was over after some number of hours. If the agents were arresting people, giving them access to lawyers, and taking them to court, the issues would be very different.

tux1968 6y ago
Police are given the latitude, with some limitations, to arrest people legally even without charge. Importantly, they must release uncharged persons within a certain timeframe which seems to have been respected in this case. If ultimately there is no charge and the person is released, they can obviously contact a lawyer and have access to the courts. We can debate all this as a matter of public policy and law. What we should not do is sacrifice our credibility by pretending that people are being kidnapped and "disappeared" or comparing this to what is going on in HK.
- jessaustin 6y ago
  Yes it's very important that CIA-sponsored protests be differentiated from non-CIA-sponsored protests! One is good and the other is bad!

joshribakoff 6y ago

As someone who was arrested for filming police brutality 10yrs ago: I was not given a call, I had no access to water. I was held in a fenced area of a Miami parking garage. I had to fake a medical emergency and only then did the EMT responders force the police to give me access to water. Another “inmate” also said he had a medical issue shortly thereafter and also needed water but they refused to call the ambulance. When I got out, the charges were not in the system. I spoke with numerous lawyers who advised if I pursued a complaint or lawsuit they’d be likely to retaliate and advised for my own safety not to pursue it.

mijoharas 6y ago

They are claiming that they are not arresting people[0][2] when they are, which is apparently illegal[2][1] [0] “They did take them to an area that was safe for both the officers and the individual to do the questioning,” he said. “It’s not a custodial arrest. We need to question this individual to find out what their role was in this laser-pointing.” Eventually, Cline said, the protester was released “because [DHS] did not have what they needed.” [1] In Dunaway v. New York the Supreme Court considered whether police violated the Fourth and 14th Amendments when–lacking probable cause–they took a person into custody, transported him to a police station and detained him for interrogation. Once again, six justices found that police violated the U.S. Constitution with such actions. Per that landmark case: [T]he detention of petitioner was in important respects indistinguishable from a traditional arrest. Petitioner was not questioned briefly where he was found. Instead, he was taken from a neighbor’s home to a police car, transported to a police station, and placed in an interrogation room. [2] https://lawandcrime.com/legal-analysis/two-dhs-officials-apparently-just-admitted-their-troops-have-been-violating-the-constitution/ https://lawandcrime.com/legal-analysis/two-dhs-officials-app...

tux1968 6y ago
This is good information. Again, doesn't suggest that this is kidnapping at all or akin to what's going on in HK. You are addressing this issue the way it should be approached, rationally and with evidence.

TheCoelacanth 6y ago

If you get pulled into an unmarked van by someone who is not wearing a police badge. That is an abduction, not an arrest, regardless of whether the person doing it happens to belong to a law enforcement organization.