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As far as I can tell, "zoning" is just a bad idea. There's no such thing in the UK [1] and it still surprises me that it's quite a common approach. (As a kid I

As far as I can tell, "zoning" is just a bad idea. There's no such thing in the UK [1] and it still surprises me that it's quite a common approach. (As a kid I thought it was a game device employed to make urban planning in Sim City manageable. I still wonder if that series of games hasn't increased its prevalence.) Instead, in the UK you require 'planning permission' to change the land use of any building. This is discretionary and may refer to some overall plan realting to the feel, density, etc. of an area but is not prescriptive over specific types. As a result I don't know anyone in this country, urban or rural dwelling, who can't walk to a shop or a pub, though I'm sure some such unlucky places exist. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoning#United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoning#United_Kingdom

pjc50 6y ago
> I don't know anyone in this country, urban or rural dwelling, who can't walk to a shop or a pub The average walking distance to a pub has gone up a lot in recent years due to closure, and walking on rural roads at night where there is no footpath is horrendously dangerous even if you carry lights. It's a nice idyll but it's no longer really true. What you say about Simcity is absolutely true though. It doesn't correspond to traditional UK or most European cities at all. Medieval mixed walkable core, maybe not driveable at all; industrialish area down by the wharves now repurposed as offices and residential; Simcity-ish bit on the outskirts where somebody decided to build a grand scheme, like La Défense. Zoning is starting to leak into urban planning a bit more, when huge housing estates are built with no shops, pubs, or facilities. As far as I can tell demand for housing outstrips everything else.
- CraigJPerry 6y ago
  Is it true that walking on rural roads at night is horrendously dangerous? I was thinking less traffic means its probably safer than the collisions that happen when pedestrians step off the pavement in town. I found something that kind of supports this notion but isn’t really conclusive https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/448036/pedestrian-casualties-2013-data.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Wonder if you have a link to share?
  - barnabee 6y ago
    Interesting about the average walking distance to a pub going up. My rural friends and family must be lucky as they don't seem to have been affected (and here in London you're unlucky if it's more than two mninutes). I'm not sure about the data for pedestrians being hit on rural roads, though the UK has very low rate of per capita pedestrian fatalities overall, among the lowest in the EU according to [1]. Anecdotally I have never felt unsafe walking on rural raods. I can see how some of the narrower "A" roads (major single carriageway roads with no central reservation, sometimes heavy lorry traffic) might be, though these usually but not always have pavements for pedestrians and if not there's generally an alternative. Either way, compared to my (admittedly limited) experience of suburban and rural America there is still a big (and welcome) difference. I hope that any downward trend can be arrested/reversed. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/sites/roadsafety/files/pdf/statistics/dacota/bfs20xx_pedestrians.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/sites/roadsafety/...
  - captainbland 6y ago
    I think generally speaking people actively avoid walking on country lanes unless there's absolutely no other way of completing the journey. Some are extremely dangerous with sporadic, fast moving traffic (60mph limit on single lane roads with no pavements or usable siding whatsoever - and people will speed on top of that) and often extremely low visibility turns. 16% of pedestrian deaths sounds quite low until you factor in that most people simply don't use them as pedestrians - in a more extreme way, only 1% of pedestrian deaths occur on motorways but that in no way makes them suitable for walking on.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      Not that I make a practice of walking on country lanes in the US either, but when I've been on long distance walks in the UK and had to walk on a road for a stretch, there does seem to be a disproportionate number where there's a hedge or a stone wall inches from some twisty turny road surface. I've definitely walked stretches of road where I've felt very exposed, especially if the light was starting to fade.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
- tannhaeuser 6y ago
  AFAIK, there's no such thing in city planning as "Medieval mixed walkable". Rather, business of the same guild worked in close proximity, so that one wouldn't undercut the others (AKA a price cartel). It's why we have meatpacking districts etc. Maybe it's different in UK, though.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    What I had in mind was places like Dubrovnik as an extreme example, or York as a less extreme - walled cities in which all the old residential/commercial activity happened. Necessarily dense and walkable. Smaller versions can be seen in "market towns" e.g. Cambridge: central square with occasional street market, surrounded by 2-4 storey buildings with shops on the ground floor and apartments above. Some of which have been converted into offices. There's a big split between European cities which decided to rebuild exactly as it was after they were bombed flat (or the few that largely escaped), versus those which decided to modernise and become car-oriented. Cambridge vs. Coventry.
  - Cogito 6y ago
    On similar shops operating in close proximity - it makes sense to cluster in order to maximise the number of customers you have access to. Imagine two ice-cream vendors on the beach, selling identical ice-creams for the same price. Since number of sales are a function of how far people have to walk to your stand (and price etc), you want to make sure you are as close to as many people as possible. If your competitor is closer to them, they will go there instead, so you either need to be very far away or right next to the competitor. If a person could visit either of your stands, the competitor can 'steal' them by simply moving their stand closer to yours, so that the customer previously in the middle is now closer to them. A discussion on the general case is here [0]. This principle obviously doesn't extend flawlessly to the real world, but is a significant contributor to, for example, the clustering of car dealerships today. [0] https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/583157/ice-cream-vendor-problem https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/583157/ice-cream-ve...
- jessaustin 6y ago
  ...walking on rural roads at night where there is no footpath is horrendously dangerous... Do you have to walk on the road? One might have expected that in rural areas one could walk through fields and forests.
  - jon-wood 6y ago
    In truly rural areas you can, but I think the areas being referenced are more semi-rural, with single track roads, and fenced off private land or dwellings on the sides. I’ve done that sort of walk a few times and it’s terrifying, especially when you know half the locals are going to be charging round at 60mph because they know the roads.
  - OnlyOneCannolo 6y ago
    Most fields and forests aren't walkable.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - viraptor 6y ago
    The context here is UK rural areas which are not quite like other places. Imagine a road that can fit 1 car, with wider places every few hundred metres and 2m+ hedges on both sides, immediately next to the road. Apart from specific paths you can't really go into a field. Random example https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/narrow-road-high-hedge-1815320.jpg https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/narrow-road-high-hedge-18153... Not all counties will look like that, but quite a lot of them to. Imagine a network of this kind of roads going on for many miles. You really don't want to walk them at night.
    - jessaustin 6y ago
      That is helpful context. Wow, they really don't want to see their neighbors. Safe roads require unobstructed sight lines.
- subsaharancoder 6y ago
  > The average walking distance to a pub This is commonly referred to as "Staggering distance" :-)
save_ferris 6y ago
> As far as I can tell, "zoning" is just a bad idea. Spend a week in Houston, TX and see if you still hold that opinion after. That is one of the least walkable cities in the US and doesn’t utilize zoning as far as I’m aware.
- apcragg 6y ago
  It's a myth that Houston doesn't have zoning. They don't have use based zoning but they still have plenty of requirements such as parking minimums and lot sizes that serve as de facto zoning.
  - save_ferris 6y ago
    Ah that's right, use-based zoning. I still don't see how removing all zoning would de facto make cities easier to get around in, particularly when the US has a long history of private interests working against public mobility projects. The reason Americans are so dependent on cars was largely influenced by big automakers.
    - Mvhsz 6y ago
      I tend to think that the outcome of removing zoning in the US would be very case-by-case. In a desirable urban neighborhood with height restrictions and a historical building commission, it might be possible to add a lot more density and storefronts without zoning. On the other end, I don't think a developer would add a story to a suburban olive garden along a busy road. If anything it might be cheaper to build sprawl without zoning.
      - save_ferris 6y ago
        > On the other end, I don't think a developer would add a story to a suburban olive garden along a busy road. If anything it might be cheaper to build sprawl without zoning. I think this is exactly Houston’s situation and why it is such a disaster from a walkability standpoint.
m463 6y ago
I remember being in mexico city, and in one neighborhood, they would talk about "las minas", which were mines, right next to and in a residential area. Most of the people in that area got their water for showers from groundwater. be careful what you wish for.

pjc50 6y ago

> I don't know anyone in this country, urban or rural dwelling, who can't walk to a shop or a pub The average walking distance to a pub has gone up a lot in recent years due to closure, and walking on rural roads at night where there is no footpath is horrendously dangerous even if you carry lights. It's a nice idyll but it's no longer really true. What you say about Simcity is absolutely true though. It doesn't correspond to traditional UK or most European cities at all. Medieval mixed walkable core, maybe not driveable at all; industrialish area down by the wharves now repurposed as offices and residential; Simcity-ish bit on the outskirts where somebody decided to build a grand scheme, like La Défense. Zoning is starting to leak into urban planning a bit more, when huge housing estates are built with no shops, pubs, or facilities. As far as I can tell demand for housing outstrips everything else.

CraigJPerry 6y ago
Is it true that walking on rural roads at night is horrendously dangerous? I was thinking less traffic means its probably safer than the collisions that happen when pedestrians step off the pavement in town. I found something that kind of supports this notion but isn’t really conclusive https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/448036/pedestrian-casualties-2013-data.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Wonder if you have a link to share?
- barnabee 6y ago
  Interesting about the average walking distance to a pub going up. My rural friends and family must be lucky as they don't seem to have been affected (and here in London you're unlucky if it's more than two mninutes). I'm not sure about the data for pedestrians being hit on rural roads, though the UK has very low rate of per capita pedestrian fatalities overall, among the lowest in the EU according to [1]. Anecdotally I have never felt unsafe walking on rural raods. I can see how some of the narrower "A" roads (major single carriageway roads with no central reservation, sometimes heavy lorry traffic) might be, though these usually but not always have pavements for pedestrians and if not there's generally an alternative. Either way, compared to my (admittedly limited) experience of suburban and rural America there is still a big (and welcome) difference. I hope that any downward trend can be arrested/reversed. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/sites/roadsafety/files/pdf/statistics/dacota/bfs20xx_pedestrians.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/sites/roadsafety/...
- captainbland 6y ago
  I think generally speaking people actively avoid walking on country lanes unless there's absolutely no other way of completing the journey. Some are extremely dangerous with sporadic, fast moving traffic (60mph limit on single lane roads with no pavements or usable siding whatsoever - and people will speed on top of that) and often extremely low visibility turns. 16% of pedestrian deaths sounds quite low until you factor in that most people simply don't use them as pedestrians - in a more extreme way, only 1% of pedestrian deaths occur on motorways but that in no way makes them suitable for walking on.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    Not that I make a practice of walking on country lanes in the US either, but when I've been on long distance walks in the UK and had to walk on a road for a stretch, there does seem to be a disproportionate number where there's a hedge or a stone wall inches from some twisty turny road surface. I've definitely walked stretches of road where I've felt very exposed, especially if the light was starting to fade.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
tannhaeuser 6y ago
AFAIK, there's no such thing in city planning as "Medieval mixed walkable". Rather, business of the same guild worked in close proximity, so that one wouldn't undercut the others (AKA a price cartel). It's why we have meatpacking districts etc. Maybe it's different in UK, though.
- pjc50 6y ago
  What I had in mind was places like Dubrovnik as an extreme example, or York as a less extreme - walled cities in which all the old residential/commercial activity happened. Necessarily dense and walkable. Smaller versions can be seen in "market towns" e.g. Cambridge: central square with occasional street market, surrounded by 2-4 storey buildings with shops on the ground floor and apartments above. Some of which have been converted into offices. There's a big split between European cities which decided to rebuild exactly as it was after they were bombed flat (or the few that largely escaped), versus those which decided to modernise and become car-oriented. Cambridge vs. Coventry.
- Cogito 6y ago
  On similar shops operating in close proximity - it makes sense to cluster in order to maximise the number of customers you have access to. Imagine two ice-cream vendors on the beach, selling identical ice-creams for the same price. Since number of sales are a function of how far people have to walk to your stand (and price etc), you want to make sure you are as close to as many people as possible. If your competitor is closer to them, they will go there instead, so you either need to be very far away or right next to the competitor. If a person could visit either of your stands, the competitor can 'steal' them by simply moving their stand closer to yours, so that the customer previously in the middle is now closer to them. A discussion on the general case is here [0]. This principle obviously doesn't extend flawlessly to the real world, but is a significant contributor to, for example, the clustering of car dealerships today. [0] https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/583157/ice-cream-vendor-problem https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/583157/ice-cream-ve...
jessaustin 6y ago
...walking on rural roads at night where there is no footpath is horrendously dangerous... Do you have to walk on the road? One might have expected that in rural areas one could walk through fields and forests.
- jon-wood 6y ago
  In truly rural areas you can, but I think the areas being referenced are more semi-rural, with single track roads, and fenced off private land or dwellings on the sides. I’ve done that sort of walk a few times and it’s terrifying, especially when you know half the locals are going to be charging round at 60mph because they know the roads.
- OnlyOneCannolo 6y ago
  Most fields and forests aren't walkable.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- viraptor 6y ago
  The context here is UK rural areas which are not quite like other places. Imagine a road that can fit 1 car, with wider places every few hundred metres and 2m+ hedges on both sides, immediately next to the road. Apart from specific paths you can't really go into a field. Random example https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/narrow-road-high-hedge-1815320.jpg https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/narrow-road-high-hedge-18153... Not all counties will look like that, but quite a lot of them to. Imagine a network of this kind of roads going on for many miles. You really don't want to walk them at night.
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    That is helpful context. Wow, they really don't want to see their neighbors. Safe roads require unobstructed sight lines.
subsaharancoder 6y ago
> The average walking distance to a pub This is commonly referred to as "Staggering distance" :-)

save_ferris 6y ago

> As far as I can tell, "zoning" is just a bad idea. Spend a week in Houston, TX and see if you still hold that opinion after. That is one of the least walkable cities in the US and doesn’t utilize zoning as far as I’m aware.

apcragg 6y ago
It's a myth that Houston doesn't have zoning. They don't have use based zoning but they still have plenty of requirements such as parking minimums and lot sizes that serve as de facto zoning.
- save_ferris 6y ago
  Ah that's right, use-based zoning. I still don't see how removing all zoning would de facto make cities easier to get around in, particularly when the US has a long history of private interests working against public mobility projects. The reason Americans are so dependent on cars was largely influenced by big automakers.
  - Mvhsz 6y ago
    I tend to think that the outcome of removing zoning in the US would be very case-by-case. In a desirable urban neighborhood with height restrictions and a historical building commission, it might be possible to add a lot more density and storefronts without zoning. On the other end, I don't think a developer would add a story to a suburban olive garden along a busy road. If anything it might be cheaper to build sprawl without zoning.
    - save_ferris 6y ago
      > On the other end, I don't think a developer would add a story to a suburban olive garden along a busy road. If anything it might be cheaper to build sprawl without zoning. I think this is exactly Houston’s situation and why it is such a disaster from a walkability standpoint.

m463 6y ago

I remember being in mexico city, and in one neighborhood, they would talk about "las minas", which were mines, right next to and in a residential area. Most of the people in that area got their water for showers from groundwater. be careful what you wish for.