10 ms·

Order temporarily blocks Feds from targeting press, legal observers in Portland

contrarianmop 6y ago
Temporarily? Let’s face it - the US is not what we were lead to believe. Had it been any other country, the UN would have condemned it long ago for being an authoritarian country. Certainly we all watched in awe how china abducted HK protesters, beat them, threaten them with death and calling them terrorists for simply spraying grafitty on buildings. In my mind the US is just a 2nd world authoritarian country with money and weapons. A danger to the free world.
- eecc 6y ago
  Well, that was the US before a bunch of manic Nationalist idiots from Europe scared into exile everyone of some use in society. Thee folks proceeded go lay the groundwork for US cultural and economic dominance in the post-war era. Somewhat of a free lunch... and these don’t last forever
  - cheschire 6y ago
    Do you have some reference material I could read regarding these nationalist idiots from europe?
    - polotics 6y ago
      I assume this is WW2 being Godwinned here.
    - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
      Nazis in WW2. Crash Course World History has a good, broad overview of it if you have absolutely no reference point.
- eternalban 6y ago
  France was in the grip of a year long Yellow Vest movement. Blood was spilled, bones were broken. This dumping on USA is getting tiring. HK protesters, regardless of one's views on their political demands or the HK police response, were not simply "spraying grafitty" [sic] on buildings. Facts are our friends these days.
  - coronadisaster 6y ago
    But this post is not about France.
    - eternalban 6y ago
      "Had it been any other country, the UN would have condemned it long ago for being an authoritarian country."
      - coronadisaster 6y ago
        I kind of ignored that line because I don't know if I can trust the UN.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/29/emmanuel-macrons-france-yellow-jackets-police-europe-year-of-cracking-heads/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/29/emmanuel-macrons-france...
- tux1968 6y ago
  Oh please. People are not being abducted off the street by the US government never to be seen again, they are being arrested. They are not being tortured or sent to a reeducation camp. They get a phone call and access to a lawyer before being tried in court. For all the faults of the US, let's not cast these current policing actions as equivalent to what is going on in HK.
  - contrarianmop 6y ago
    Oh please, we are now debating which country is less authoritarian. Any Russian or Chinese government troll will launch similar comparisons in defence of Putin or Xi: but at least we are not doing [x]. Kidnapping is kidnapping. Some of you have gone quickly from freedom of speech and democracy to at least we only disappear people for a few days. And we only beat journalists we dont torture them. And we only persecute minorities we dont put them in camps. And we only let them rot in ghettos not gas chambers. Be serious, you are part of the problem.
    - tux1968 6y ago
      You were the one who tried to compare them as equally authoritarian, and they are not -- as much as you want to convict them of the same crimes. If anyone is being arrested off the street for free speech then I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you and oppose it. If they are being arrested for violence or property damage, then I will let the courts deal with it. Being shrill and exaggerating what is going on is not helping, it is part of the problem.
      - contrarianmop 6y ago
        Yeah in the freeworld we dont kidnap people for damaging wall paint. Anyway enjoy your erosion of rights - they already deny you plenty.
        tux1968 6y ago
        I believe that our government and corporate culture is way too authoritarian and have been speaking out against it my whole life. That does not mean that we should depart from all sense of proportionality and reason. You do us no favour by exaggerating and mischaracterizing the situation. The US government isn't kidnapping anyone off the street for damaging wall paint -- they're arresting people. If you can't see the difference and keep that simple fact straight, you hurt your own case and seem unreasonable and untrustworthy as a source. If there have been unjust arrests, then say so and make it known. But don't pretend they are kidnappings -- it sounds ridiculous on the face of it and makes you sound childish.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
mcherm 6y ago
An interesting point that this article does not mention, but which can be found in other articles [2] or the order [2]: The judge issuing the order specifically stated that this court has reviewed and ruled on the the order so it is clearly established that it is legal and thus qualified immunity does not apply. I had not previously seen that technique for (potentially?) avoiding qualified immunity. [1] https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/07/judge-inclined-to-restrain-federal-law-enforcement-from-using-force-threats-dispersal-orders-against-journalists-legal-observers.html https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/07/judge-inclined-t... [2] https://aclu-or.org/sites/default/files/field_documents/aclu_tro_against_federal_defendants.pdf https://aclu-or.org/sites/default/files/field_documents/aclu...
- drtillberg 6y ago
  Similar function to a consent judgment[1]. Remedies can include citation for contempt, continuing supervision . [1] https://www.lexisnexis.com/lexis-practice-advisor/the-journal/b/lpa/posts/enforcing-settlements-and-consent-decrees https://www.lexisnexis.com/lexis-practice-advisor/the-journa...
blickentwapft 6y ago
Better start printing thousands of T-shirts saying JOURNALIST.
- ThePowerOfFuet 6y ago
  PRESS.
entropea 6y ago
Temporarily?? I could've sworn this was a permanent right of US citizens?
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  The TRO means that there can be actual punishment, fairly swiftly, for violations, because violations become contempt of court for which the court can issue civil penalties on a near-immediate basis. All the things that make holding government agencies and government agents accountable and laborious are cut through when there is a specific court order and not just general law in play.
- eternalban 6y ago
  I've never read 'The Patriot Act' in full.
dj_mc_merlin 6y ago
> ...preventing federal agents from "arresting, threatening to arrest, or using physical force" directed at anyone they know to be a journalist or legal observer, unless they have probable cause to believe they have committed a crime. Is that not the case already?
- DebtDeflation 6y ago
  Right? Along with: >The order also blocks the defendants from seizing any photographic, audio and video recording equipment and press passes from people in those two categories, as well as from ordering them to stop recording or observing a protest. I feel like I'm living in Bizarro World. You have to actually have committed a crime in order to be legitimately arrested? Police can't just take your lawful property? Police can't order citizens to "not observe" what is happening? We needed a restraining order to acknowledge this?
  - xtian 6y ago
    All “police reform” measures I’ve seen simply codify things cops would be doing already if their culture and systems weren’t completely irredeemable. It’s nothing more than a tactic to distract and fragment consensus.
    - mtgx 6y ago
      The law-abiding culture of authorities was completely corrupted post-9/11. It was "everything goes" from that point forward. And too many people said nothing against it or even supported it. And I'm sure at the time many were dismissing comments about the "slippery slope," too. Well the slippery slope was very real, and now we've arrived at the bottom of the slope and it's much harder to change back the culture or revert the policies. It will probably require people dying before they are changed back (just like in the Civil Rights era).
  - contrarianmop 6y ago
    In the United States, much like in similar authoritarian countries, the police appears to be able to arrest journalists without probable cause. Happened live where journalists reporting live have been arrested and / or beaten. A sad state of affairs.
chefkoch 6y ago
I'm not really sure how this is going to be enforced if the federal agents cannot be identified?
- stronglikedan 6y ago
  They can be identified by their badges, just like any other law enforcement officer. They all wear badges with unique badge numbers.
  - guerrilla 6y ago
    You missed the part where they have been removing and covering their badges fairly consistently.
    - UI_at_80x24 6y ago
      I'd like to see this codified into law and practice: As soon as you cover/hide a badge/identification you are no longer acting as law-enforcement and are deemed a terrorist inciting fear & harm on the public.
      - jessaustin 6y ago
        I saw an interview with the mayor a couple of days ago. He ended by throwing a Molotov cocktail that the interviewer completely ignored: "It would be really unfortunate if the irregular behavior of these federal agents put them in harm's way." (My memory is not great so this quote may be a bit more explicit than the original?) In general, if an unidentified group of armed and camouflaged ruffians pours out of unmarked vans to menace our neighborhood, we should shoot them.
        non-entity 6y ago
        I've heard stuff like this a lot, but just dont believe it. The people who are more likely to be armed arent being targeted. Plus shooting at federal officers is likely to be a death sentence, both literally and in regards to sympathy / support for yourself and beliefs.
cabaalis 6y ago
> U.S. District Judge Michael Simon issued a restraining order Thursday preventing federal agents from "arresting, threatening to arrest, or using physical force" directed at anyone they know to be a journalist or legal observer, unless they have probable cause to believe they have committed a crime. > The order also blocks the defendants from seizing any photographic, audio and video recording equipment and press passes from people in those two categories, as well as from ordering them to stop recording or observing a protest. Why is this not within the already defined rights of all Americans? I fail to see why journalists would need a special use case.
- jhauris 6y ago
  Another poster mentioned that this order negates claims of qualified immunity. You're correct, this is already a protected right; I believe the order makes it so no officer can claim they made some kind of reasonable mistake and thus can't be held personally liable.
- jessaustin 6y ago
  Police (and some journalists themselves) would love to see 1A limited to journalists and 2A limited to racist rednecks (...and, one supposes, 3A limited to families without pretty teenage daughters). The more the population can be divided, the better, for authoritarians.
  - mijoharas 6y ago
    sorry, what are 1A, 2A and 3A?
    - jessaustin 6y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Amendment_to_the_United_... Sure, these abbreviations are USA-centric. I thought that would be OK given the subject of TFA.
ISL 6y ago
This should not require a court order.
coronadisaster 6y ago
Dang, did you mess with the ranking of this post?

Temporarily? Let’s face it - the US is not what we were lead to believe. Had it been any other country, the UN would have condemned it long ago for being an authoritarian country. Certainly we all watched in awe how china abducted HK protesters, beat them, threaten them with death and calling them terrorists for simply spraying grafitty on buildings. In my mind the US is just a 2nd world authoritarian country with money and weapons. A danger to the free world.

eecc 6y ago
Well, that was the US before a bunch of manic Nationalist idiots from Europe scared into exile everyone of some use in society. Thee folks proceeded go lay the groundwork for US cultural and economic dominance in the post-war era. Somewhat of a free lunch... and these don’t last forever
- cheschire 6y ago
  Do you have some reference material I could read regarding these nationalist idiots from europe?
  - polotics 6y ago
    I assume this is WW2 being Godwinned here.
  - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
    Nazis in WW2. Crash Course World History has a good, broad overview of it if you have absolutely no reference point.
eternalban 6y ago
France was in the grip of a year long Yellow Vest movement. Blood was spilled, bones were broken. This dumping on USA is getting tiring. HK protesters, regardless of one's views on their political demands or the HK police response, were not simply "spraying grafitty" [sic] on buildings. Facts are our friends these days.
- coronadisaster 6y ago
  But this post is not about France.
  - eternalban 6y ago
    "Had it been any other country, the UN would have condemned it long ago for being an authoritarian country."
    - coronadisaster 6y ago
      I kind of ignored that line because I don't know if I can trust the UN.
dogma1138 6y ago
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/29/emmanuel-macrons-france-yellow-jackets-police-europe-year-of-cracking-heads/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/29/emmanuel-macrons-france...
tux1968 6y ago
Oh please. People are not being abducted off the street by the US government never to be seen again, they are being arrested. They are not being tortured or sent to a reeducation camp. They get a phone call and access to a lawyer before being tried in court. For all the faults of the US, let's not cast these current policing actions as equivalent to what is going on in HK.
- contrarianmop 6y ago
  Oh please, we are now debating which country is less authoritarian. Any Russian or Chinese government troll will launch similar comparisons in defence of Putin or Xi: but at least we are not doing [x]. Kidnapping is kidnapping. Some of you have gone quickly from freedom of speech and democracy to at least we only disappear people for a few days. And we only beat journalists we dont torture them. And we only persecute minorities we dont put them in camps. And we only let them rot in ghettos not gas chambers. Be serious, you are part of the problem.
  - tux1968 6y ago
    You were the one who tried to compare them as equally authoritarian, and they are not -- as much as you want to convict them of the same crimes. If anyone is being arrested off the street for free speech then I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you and oppose it. If they are being arrested for violence or property damage, then I will let the courts deal with it. Being shrill and exaggerating what is going on is not helping, it is part of the problem.
    - contrarianmop 6y ago
      Yeah in the freeworld we dont kidnap people for damaging wall paint. Anyway enjoy your erosion of rights - they already deny you plenty.
      - tux1968 6y ago
        I believe that our government and corporate culture is way too authoritarian and have been speaking out against it my whole life. That does not mean that we should depart from all sense of proportionality and reason. You do us no favour by exaggerating and mischaracterizing the situation. The US government isn't kidnapping anyone off the street for damaging wall paint -- they're arresting people. If you can't see the difference and keep that simple fact straight, you hurt your own case and seem unreasonable and untrustworthy as a source. If there have been unjust arrests, then say so and make it known. But don't pretend they are kidnappings -- it sounds ridiculous on the face of it and makes you sound childish.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

mcherm 6y ago

An interesting point that this article does not mention, but which can be found in other articles [2] or the order [2]: The judge issuing the order specifically stated that this court has reviewed and ruled on the the order so it is clearly established that it is legal and thus qualified immunity does not apply. I had not previously seen that technique for (potentially?) avoiding qualified immunity. [1] https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/07/judge-inclined-to-restrain-federal-law-enforcement-from-using-force-threats-dispersal-orders-against-journalists-legal-observers.html https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/07/judge-inclined-t... [2] https://aclu-or.org/sites/default/files/field_documents/aclu_tro_against_federal_defendants.pdf https://aclu-or.org/sites/default/files/field_documents/aclu...

drtillberg 6y ago
Similar function to a consent judgment[1]. Remedies can include citation for contempt, continuing supervision . [1] https://www.lexisnexis.com/lexis-practice-advisor/the-journal/b/lpa/posts/enforcing-settlements-and-consent-decrees https://www.lexisnexis.com/lexis-practice-advisor/the-journa...

blickentwapft 6y ago

Better start printing thousands of T-shirts saying JOURNALIST.

ThePowerOfFuet 6y ago
PRESS.

entropea 6y ago

Temporarily?? I could've sworn this was a permanent right of US citizens?

dragonwriter 6y ago
The TRO means that there can be actual punishment, fairly swiftly, for violations, because violations become contempt of court for which the court can issue civil penalties on a near-immediate basis. All the things that make holding government agencies and government agents accountable and laborious are cut through when there is a specific court order and not just general law in play.
eternalban 6y ago
I've never read 'The Patriot Act' in full.

dj_mc_merlin 6y ago

> ...preventing federal agents from "arresting, threatening to arrest, or using physical force" directed at anyone they know to be a journalist or legal observer, unless they have probable cause to believe they have committed a crime. Is that not the case already?

DebtDeflation 6y ago
Right? Along with: >The order also blocks the defendants from seizing any photographic, audio and video recording equipment and press passes from people in those two categories, as well as from ordering them to stop recording or observing a protest. I feel like I'm living in Bizarro World. You have to actually have committed a crime in order to be legitimately arrested? Police can't just take your lawful property? Police can't order citizens to "not observe" what is happening? We needed a restraining order to acknowledge this?
- xtian 6y ago
  All “police reform” measures I’ve seen simply codify things cops would be doing already if their culture and systems weren’t completely irredeemable. It’s nothing more than a tactic to distract and fragment consensus.
  - mtgx 6y ago
    The law-abiding culture of authorities was completely corrupted post-9/11. It was "everything goes" from that point forward. And too many people said nothing against it or even supported it. And I'm sure at the time many were dismissing comments about the "slippery slope," too. Well the slippery slope was very real, and now we've arrived at the bottom of the slope and it's much harder to change back the culture or revert the policies. It will probably require people dying before they are changed back (just like in the Civil Rights era).
- contrarianmop 6y ago
  In the United States, much like in similar authoritarian countries, the police appears to be able to arrest journalists without probable cause. Happened live where journalists reporting live have been arrested and / or beaten. A sad state of affairs.

chefkoch 6y ago

I'm not really sure how this is going to be enforced if the federal agents cannot be identified?

stronglikedan 6y ago
They can be identified by their badges, just like any other law enforcement officer. They all wear badges with unique badge numbers.
- guerrilla 6y ago
  You missed the part where they have been removing and covering their badges fairly consistently.
  - UI_at_80x24 6y ago
    I'd like to see this codified into law and practice: As soon as you cover/hide a badge/identification you are no longer acting as law-enforcement and are deemed a terrorist inciting fear & harm on the public.
    - jessaustin 6y ago
      I saw an interview with the mayor a couple of days ago. He ended by throwing a Molotov cocktail that the interviewer completely ignored: "It would be really unfortunate if the irregular behavior of these federal agents put them in harm's way." (My memory is not great so this quote may be a bit more explicit than the original?) In general, if an unidentified group of armed and camouflaged ruffians pours out of unmarked vans to menace our neighborhood, we should shoot them.
      - non-entity 6y ago
        I've heard stuff like this a lot, but just dont believe it. The people who are more likely to be armed arent being targeted. Plus shooting at federal officers is likely to be a death sentence, both literally and in regards to sympathy / support for yourself and beliefs.

cabaalis 6y ago

> U.S. District Judge Michael Simon issued a restraining order Thursday preventing federal agents from "arresting, threatening to arrest, or using physical force" directed at anyone they know to be a journalist or legal observer, unless they have probable cause to believe they have committed a crime. > The order also blocks the defendants from seizing any photographic, audio and video recording equipment and press passes from people in those two categories, as well as from ordering them to stop recording or observing a protest. Why is this not within the already defined rights of all Americans? I fail to see why journalists would need a special use case.

jhauris 6y ago
Another poster mentioned that this order negates claims of qualified immunity. You're correct, this is already a protected right; I believe the order makes it so no officer can claim they made some kind of reasonable mistake and thus can't be held personally liable.
jessaustin 6y ago
Police (and some journalists themselves) would love to see 1A limited to journalists and 2A limited to racist rednecks (...and, one supposes, 3A limited to families without pretty teenage daughters). The more the population can be divided, the better, for authoritarians.
- mijoharas 6y ago
  sorry, what are 1A, 2A and 3A?
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Amendment_to_the_United_... Sure, these abbreviations are USA-centric. I thought that would be OK given the subject of TFA.

ISL 6y ago

This should not require a court order.

coronadisaster 6y ago

Dang, did you mess with the ranking of this post?