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Understanding other people. First, it's plain interesting to discover if they hold the view with some merit instead of stupidity[0]. Second, I guess it's polit

Understanding other people. First, it's plain interesting to discover if they hold the view with some merit instead of stupidity[0]. Second, I guess it's polite to listen when you can, and my manners could do with some improving. Third and perhaps most compelling, the better you understand them the better you might be able to counter their arguments. Fourthly, in the rare event they actually can make a solid case case for their side, you may learn something important. [0] Yesterday (FYI I'm in the UK) there was a discussion in a shop by staff with a woman who didn't want to wear a face mask (they are compulsory starting today, yesterday they were not). She said they didn't help to protect you from covid so she didn't see why she should. I told her that was true but they weren't intended to protect you from viruses, they were to prevent infected people from spreading it to others. It was clear from her reaction she hadn't known this. Therefore she made up her mind without doing the least research. That's stupidity.

BrandoElFollito 6y ago
> Understanding other people I used to do that too - with religion. Then I stopped because I believe that there are fundamental differences between rational and irrational people. The volume is on the side of the irrational ones, so I gave up. I am better off avoiding these subjects now, as nobody ever convinced anybody. > Therefore she made up her mind without doing the least research. That's stupidity I am French and our news (following official governmental information) told us that masks are useless, then dangerous, then somehow useful, then life-saving. Someone who is not that interested in the subject may have heard one of these opinions. I am in the same boat when it comes to climate change and Brexit. There are zillions of opinions, but none of the ones I heard are clear cut. I have a PhD in physics so I love numbers and equations. I am also painfully rational and yet I hear that the climate is warming globally, but this doe snot mean that this is visible on the small scale of my city, and then that in average the temperature of seas is raising, but the sea during my vacation is still cold. And why it matters that +2° here or there makes a difference. Same for Brexit: this is an economic disaster, or a godsend - depending on whom you listen to. But nobody gives actual numbers. When I look at the EU budget, I see that the UK is a net payer. So UK leaving is bad for us, good for them. Except that it si not, because something. I am not an expert in climate and in economy. And I do not want to be. I am open to having a well bundled rational set of information (and consequences) - it is just that I do not see them. For things like Brexit or climate change, they should be stuffed into my eyes daily. When people start to wave hands instead of giving a few accurate and unbiased numbers, I conclude that they simply do not know, or are not sure. BTW, the best, understandable argument about climate change was given to me by, who else, xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1732/ https://xkcd.com/1732/, https://xkcd.com/1379/ https://xkcd.com/1379/ and a few others.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  > I used to do that too - with religion. Then I stopped because I believe that there are fundamental differences between rational and irrational people. I'm an atheist so I sort of know what you're saying but I don't like to call religious people irrational. They have a certain POV and I know of religious people who are rational (most of them really). > I am French and our news ditto stupidity from out govt in the UK. But I do expect people to do a bit more research before making life-threatening decisions. I've argued with brexiteers. It's a waste of time. "We're British!" seems reason enough for them (am a brit).
  - BrandoElFollito 6y ago
    > I'm an atheist so I sort of know what you're saying but I don't like to call religious people irrational. They have a certain POV and I know of religious people who are rational (most of them really). I am profoundly atheist, after being raised in a mildly religious atmosphere (religion the French way - not too strong, rather kind minded). I think that people who are believers fall into one of the categories of "I have been doing it my whole life, I do not want to think about that", "I do not want to think about that because I am afraid of God's wrath, death, ..." and similar irrational ones. I (seriously) understand these people - to some point having a strong belief is helpful and they may have an easier and more happy life. Probably less fear about the future and comforting state of mind about the "whys" of our existence. What I cannot stand are scientists who believe in a god. I see that as a mental health issue where you are scientist form Mon to Sat, and suddenly forget everything on Sunday where you kneel in front of an imaginary friend (pick your favorite day of prayers). And find this normal. To these people I become Pastafarian and a pain in the ass because I tell them how much these meat balls are important in my life of scientist, and how much it guides me on the path of illumination. People who claim being scientists and at the same time believe in nonsense are dangerous.
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      I'm not disagreeing but I do hold the very different view that religion and science are compatible (I used to be very anti-religion many years ago BTW). I'm OK with "god created all", Fiat Lux differs little for me than the big bang. You can have both. What is intolerable to me those who use god as a crutch to excuse themselves from their own moral obligations to do the right thing and to think for themselves. I guess this is where we agree. I hope so anyway.

BrandoElFollito 6y ago

> Understanding other people I used to do that too - with religion. Then I stopped because I believe that there are fundamental differences between rational and irrational people. The volume is on the side of the irrational ones, so I gave up. I am better off avoiding these subjects now, as nobody ever convinced anybody. > Therefore she made up her mind without doing the least research. That's stupidity I am French and our news (following official governmental information) told us that masks are useless, then dangerous, then somehow useful, then life-saving. Someone who is not that interested in the subject may have heard one of these opinions. I am in the same boat when it comes to climate change and Brexit. There are zillions of opinions, but none of the ones I heard are clear cut. I have a PhD in physics so I love numbers and equations. I am also painfully rational and yet I hear that the climate is warming globally, but this doe snot mean that this is visible on the small scale of my city, and then that in average the temperature of seas is raising, but the sea during my vacation is still cold. And why it matters that +2° here or there makes a difference. Same for Brexit: this is an economic disaster, or a godsend - depending on whom you listen to. But nobody gives actual numbers. When I look at the EU budget, I see that the UK is a net payer. So UK leaving is bad for us, good for them. Except that it si not, because something. I am not an expert in climate and in economy. And I do not want to be. I am open to having a well bundled rational set of information (and consequences) - it is just that I do not see them. For things like Brexit or climate change, they should be stuffed into my eyes daily. When people start to wave hands instead of giving a few accurate and unbiased numbers, I conclude that they simply do not know, or are not sure. BTW, the best, understandable argument about climate change was given to me by, who else, xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1732/ https://xkcd.com/1732/, https://xkcd.com/1379/ https://xkcd.com/1379/ and a few others.

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
> I used to do that too - with religion. Then I stopped because I believe that there are fundamental differences between rational and irrational people. I'm an atheist so I sort of know what you're saying but I don't like to call religious people irrational. They have a certain POV and I know of religious people who are rational (most of them really). > I am French and our news ditto stupidity from out govt in the UK. But I do expect people to do a bit more research before making life-threatening decisions. I've argued with brexiteers. It's a waste of time. "We're British!" seems reason enough for them (am a brit).
- BrandoElFollito 6y ago
  > I'm an atheist so I sort of know what you're saying but I don't like to call religious people irrational. They have a certain POV and I know of religious people who are rational (most of them really). I am profoundly atheist, after being raised in a mildly religious atmosphere (religion the French way - not too strong, rather kind minded). I think that people who are believers fall into one of the categories of "I have been doing it my whole life, I do not want to think about that", "I do not want to think about that because I am afraid of God's wrath, death, ..." and similar irrational ones. I (seriously) understand these people - to some point having a strong belief is helpful and they may have an easier and more happy life. Probably less fear about the future and comforting state of mind about the "whys" of our existence. What I cannot stand are scientists who believe in a god. I see that as a mental health issue where you are scientist form Mon to Sat, and suddenly forget everything on Sunday where you kneel in front of an imaginary friend (pick your favorite day of prayers). And find this normal. To these people I become Pastafarian and a pain in the ass because I tell them how much these meat balls are important in my life of scientist, and how much it guides me on the path of illumination. People who claim being scientists and at the same time believe in nonsense are dangerous.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    I'm not disagreeing but I do hold the very different view that religion and science are compatible (I used to be very anti-religion many years ago BTW). I'm OK with "god created all", Fiat Lux differs little for me than the big bang. You can have both. What is intolerable to me those who use god as a crutch to excuse themselves from their own moral obligations to do the right thing and to think for themselves. I guess this is where we agree. I hope so anyway.