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> Historical discrimination has left black families much poorer than they would otherwise be. Poverty discriminates in myriad ways: lack of good role models and

by hnarn 6y ago

> Historical discrimination has left black families much poorer than they would otherwise be. Poverty discriminates in myriad ways: lack of good role models and mentors, poor educational environments, lack of nutrition, lack of opportunities for enrichment, etc... While this is true in some cases, and you do point out that "discriminiation is also still present", I can strongly recommend "Reflecting on the Color of My Skin" by Marques Brownlee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-_WXXVye3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-_WXXVye3Y Regardless of the material differences between black and white people, I think white people (including myself) tend to underestimate the effect of constantly being treated as "the first black guy who..." -- that's racism too, and while not always toxic, it holds up a lot of other discriminatory practices by being the foundation of differentiation.

babesh 6y ago
I have already seen that video. I think not having a first doesn’t have to be discriminatory. The courage to not be dissuaded by that is actually a positive character trait. See this interview https://youtu.be/3RG5pXTpLBI https://youtu.be/3RG5pXTpLBI 18 minutes in. He was short and was failing out of spacewalk training so he figured out a way to make it work.
- hnarn 6y ago
  >I think not having a first doesn’t have to be discriminatory What do you mean by this more specifically? If you're a part of a minority with a history of oppression, which I hope we can all agree is true for black people in the US, are you saying there's zero things questionable about constantly pointing out that someone is black when they enter a "typically white" area of sports or other activity? I have always taken for granted that the definition of "racism" is not necessarily the same as "hating someone due to their race", but more generally "defining someone primarily by their race in a situation that does not call for it and only secondly by individual attributes". Examples of where it may be "called for" is obviously up for debate, could be highly relevant in medical trials for example.
  - babesh 6y ago
    I mean that there are two groups of people involved. The first is the person or people who is/are potentially the first of a particular ethnic group to achieve a position. If you are that person or people, you will need courage to not let that dissuade you. I don’t see any discrimination there. If you are dissuaded because there is no one before you, then you need more determination because for most people bad things happen in life and you need to deal with it. The second is everyone else. It would be discriminatory if others defined the first by their race in that situation. But that discrimination doesn’t necessarily happen.
mrtksn 6y ago
It's little bit like the tragedy of the rich people's kids: No matter how brilliant you are, many people would simply assume that you have been given the easy route thanks to daddy. Surely it is annoying and may make achievers to prove themselves over and over again, I don't think that it is big enough of an issue to dismiss programs that are designed to tackle real issues in the society. It's just that people should know where to stop and don't try to implement these in communities where less than perfect but good-enough status is achieved.
- bananaface 6y ago
  I honestly don't have much sympathy for that particular plight. Living in the shadow of your parents is the tax you pay for being born into tremendous wealth? Sign me up.
  - mrtksn 6y ago
    See, you assume that just because they are kids of rich people, they must be some kind of leech. It's deeply similar to all kind of discrimination but at least they can cry in their summer mansion sipping some nice French wine. It's well known fact that kids of alumni traditionally get accepted in their fathers ivy-league alma matter, but god forbid if few minority kids get an easy way in, then you have viral videos about how it's impossible to get into SOMETHING unless you are black asian gay. Apple makes a summer coding camp for girls, and you have men crying all over the internet that it's now impossible for men to make career tech anymore. I mean, I myself have some macho pride(in a sence that men should have some qualities, like not crying when something is not happening the way they want and so on) and makes me cringe when I see an able bodied man crying about how a school girl got an easy way and she is not better than him but he got left out. I think Greta Thunberg struck a cord there, it was hard to watch grown up men having their egos crushed by a teenager.
    - bananaface 6y ago
      Look, I think you have an axe to grind and I'm probably not the right person to talk to about this. Yes, I think sipping wine in the Hamptons is better than worrying about your next rent payment in the Bronx.
MaximumYComb 6y ago
That video reflects purely on skin colour and I feel that can be harmful. My skin is white but I'm descendant from the Australian Stolen Generation (google it if you want to see more). I was raised in a poor country town and I literally joined the military to escape that life. Compare that to the experience of this Youtuber. He was a golfer at 10 years of age... I don't even know how you could ask parents to spend that sort of money on you at that age. His story screams privilege (professional ultimate frisbee for one). I make decent money now since I used the military for a CS education but when I go shopping I choose to go to the low socioeconomic area. I don't fit in culturally at the upper middle class shopping centers. I don't dress the same, talk the same, hold the same values, etc. Not feeling like you don't fit in isn't just linked to race. That being said, poor black African Americans (and Aboriginal Australians) have horrible life outcomes, far worse than any I could expect. Second generation black immigrants from Nigeria and Ethopia have better life outcomes than the general US population so it's not just about skin colour. I feel that there is a whole host of intergenerational related issues impacting the African American community. In addition, I feel that mainstream culture is quite hostile to African American culture.
- BlackCherry 6y ago
  You are accurately identifying that he uses his identity to hide his class in order to increase his profits. This is what modern corporate diversity initiatives are in a nutshell.
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  The is intersectional analysis and has been a core part of activism for decades. Race is a huge and essential component to systems of oppression in the US but it is not the only component. But people working on this problem already know this at a deep level. This does not take away from the importance of understanding how race fits into the systems of oppression.
  - MaximumYComb 6y ago
    My issue is the way the media talks about "white" and "non-white". Being born white isn't some ticket to a silver spoon, and with so much emphasis on purely race there are negative repercussions. i.e. I just googled it [1]. The fourth link talks about the relationship between usage of White Privilege and how it impacts peoples view of poor white people. There is so much emphasis on skin colour that the guy in the Youtube video literally won the privilege lottery at birth (compared to ~95% of other Americans) and still feels oppressed enough to make a video about it. If his video had of been purely about solidarity for the Americans born porn and black I would have supported it since that demographic needs solidarity to help get out of the hole they were born into. Instead, he made it about himself and his rich boy problems. [1] - https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-22926-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-22926-001

by hnarn 6y ago

babesh 6y ago

I have already seen that video. I think not having a first doesn’t have to be discriminatory. The courage to not be dissuaded by that is actually a positive character trait. See this interview https://youtu.be/3RG5pXTpLBI https://youtu.be/3RG5pXTpLBI 18 minutes in. He was short and was failing out of spacewalk training so he figured out a way to make it work.

hnarn 6y ago
>I think not having a first doesn’t have to be discriminatory What do you mean by this more specifically? If you're a part of a minority with a history of oppression, which I hope we can all agree is true for black people in the US, are you saying there's zero things questionable about constantly pointing out that someone is black when they enter a "typically white" area of sports or other activity? I have always taken for granted that the definition of "racism" is not necessarily the same as "hating someone due to their race", but more generally "defining someone primarily by their race in a situation that does not call for it and only secondly by individual attributes". Examples of where it may be "called for" is obviously up for debate, could be highly relevant in medical trials for example.
- babesh 6y ago
  I mean that there are two groups of people involved. The first is the person or people who is/are potentially the first of a particular ethnic group to achieve a position. If you are that person or people, you will need courage to not let that dissuade you. I don’t see any discrimination there. If you are dissuaded because there is no one before you, then you need more determination because for most people bad things happen in life and you need to deal with it. The second is everyone else. It would be discriminatory if others defined the first by their race in that situation. But that discrimination doesn’t necessarily happen.

mrtksn 6y ago

It's little bit like the tragedy of the rich people's kids: No matter how brilliant you are, many people would simply assume that you have been given the easy route thanks to daddy. Surely it is annoying and may make achievers to prove themselves over and over again, I don't think that it is big enough of an issue to dismiss programs that are designed to tackle real issues in the society. It's just that people should know where to stop and don't try to implement these in communities where less than perfect but good-enough status is achieved.

bananaface 6y ago
I honestly don't have much sympathy for that particular plight. Living in the shadow of your parents is the tax you pay for being born into tremendous wealth? Sign me up.
- mrtksn 6y ago
  See, you assume that just because they are kids of rich people, they must be some kind of leech. It's deeply similar to all kind of discrimination but at least they can cry in their summer mansion sipping some nice French wine. It's well known fact that kids of alumni traditionally get accepted in their fathers ivy-league alma matter, but god forbid if few minority kids get an easy way in, then you have viral videos about how it's impossible to get into SOMETHING unless you are black asian gay. Apple makes a summer coding camp for girls, and you have men crying all over the internet that it's now impossible for men to make career tech anymore. I mean, I myself have some macho pride(in a sence that men should have some qualities, like not crying when something is not happening the way they want and so on) and makes me cringe when I see an able bodied man crying about how a school girl got an easy way and she is not better than him but he got left out. I think Greta Thunberg struck a cord there, it was hard to watch grown up men having their egos crushed by a teenager.
  - bananaface 6y ago
    Look, I think you have an axe to grind and I'm probably not the right person to talk to about this. Yes, I think sipping wine in the Hamptons is better than worrying about your next rent payment in the Bronx.

MaximumYComb 6y ago

That video reflects purely on skin colour and I feel that can be harmful. My skin is white but I'm descendant from the Australian Stolen Generation (google it if you want to see more). I was raised in a poor country town and I literally joined the military to escape that life. Compare that to the experience of this Youtuber. He was a golfer at 10 years of age... I don't even know how you could ask parents to spend that sort of money on you at that age. His story screams privilege (professional ultimate frisbee for one). I make decent money now since I used the military for a CS education but when I go shopping I choose to go to the low socioeconomic area. I don't fit in culturally at the upper middle class shopping centers. I don't dress the same, talk the same, hold the same values, etc. Not feeling like you don't fit in isn't just linked to race. That being said, poor black African Americans (and Aboriginal Australians) have horrible life outcomes, far worse than any I could expect. Second generation black immigrants from Nigeria and Ethopia have better life outcomes than the general US population so it's not just about skin colour. I feel that there is a whole host of intergenerational related issues impacting the African American community. In addition, I feel that mainstream culture is quite hostile to African American culture.

BlackCherry 6y ago
You are accurately identifying that he uses his identity to hide his class in order to increase his profits. This is what modern corporate diversity initiatives are in a nutshell.
UncleMeat 6y ago
The is intersectional analysis and has been a core part of activism for decades. Race is a huge and essential component to systems of oppression in the US but it is not the only component. But people working on this problem already know this at a deep level. This does not take away from the importance of understanding how race fits into the systems of oppression.
- MaximumYComb 6y ago
  My issue is the way the media talks about "white" and "non-white". Being born white isn't some ticket to a silver spoon, and with so much emphasis on purely race there are negative repercussions. i.e. I just googled it [1]. The fourth link talks about the relationship between usage of White Privilege and how it impacts peoples view of poor white people. There is so much emphasis on skin colour that the guy in the Youtube video literally won the privilege lottery at birth (compared to ~95% of other Americans) and still feels oppressed enough to make a video about it. If his video had of been purely about solidarity for the Americans born porn and black I would have supported it since that demographic needs solidarity to help get out of the hole they were born into. Instead, he made it about himself and his rich boy problems. [1] - https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-22926-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-22926-001