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Since this is written by a Black person in tech, my guess is that his beliefs are based on a lifetime of being treated as a second-class citizen, and this anecd

Since this is written by a Black person in tech, my guess is that his beliefs are based on a lifetime of being treated as a second-class citizen, and this anecdote was merely a particularly obvious case. However, like you, I am way of anecdotes and put more faith in empirical studies [1]. So what do the data say? Turns out they align with the lived experience of the author: widespread hiring bias by employers hurting Black people. [1] https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873

NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
This is BS. The study is from 2003 and isn't about elite tech jobs. There is evidence that, nowadays, there is a large bias in favor of women and under-represented minorities in, for example, academia and top-tier tech when controlling for resume.
- tptacek 6y ago
  Present that evidence, please. The comment you're trying to rebut did you that courtesy; repay it.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
    This is a good point and a reasonable request! Here's one https://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360 https://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360 Note, when looking at this literature: there is a huge publication bias. Publishing a paper that fits the popular (in social sciences) narratives is easy, publishing one that goes against them (like the one I linked) is hard and may well be career suicide. Also, the bar for what constitutes good enough science in these areas is very low.
    - jakelazaroff 6y ago
      > Publishing a paper that fits the popular (in social sciences) narratives is easy, publishing one that goes against them (like the one I linked) is hard and may well be career suicide. The Occam’s Razor explanation for this is that the popular narratives are popular because most available evidence supports them.
      - exolymph 6y ago
        Yes, the person you're responding to made a point about precisely that — available evidence. The file-drawer effect is real and multifaceted, including political narrative strategy. If you don't think that editors consider this aspect of maintaining their journals' reputations, you are simply naive.
      - concordDance 6y ago
        > The Occam’s Razor explanation for this is that the popular narratives are popular because most available evidence supports them. That seems like a bit of abuse of Occam's razor. Narratives are popularized by the general media, not scientists. Just compare how popular the idea that IQ is meaningless and not heritable is amongst the general population and the media compared to those who actually study the topic full time at universities. Universities and people in them are not immune to pressure. Wasn't Hsu fired partly because he funded research into police shootings that ended up getting a politically incorrect result? Authors of unpopular results (Rind et al anyone?) often get attacked a lot, their research subject to a disproportionate level of scrutiny and it's very career limitting (or is at least rumoured to be, which is plenty of a chilling effect).
        pseudalopex 6y ago
        Steve Hsu wasn't fired. He resigned from his position overseeing other people's research. He kept his position as a professor with tenure. Cesario and Johnson studied fatal shootings by police. Hsu personally promoted their study as relevant to George Floyd's killing and/or the subsequent protests. But George Floyd wasn't shot and the protests were about more than fatal shootings. That was only a small part of the case the graduate employee union presented against Hsu. The letter started by faculty[1] didn't mention it at all. [1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jb7w02E5GAdrJ_QnAokp7IerP_VBDridmQ-rI9M2TAE/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jb7w02E5GAdrJ_QnAokp7Ier...
        concordDance 6y ago
        Twas a forced resignation. I don't want to get too down into the weeds as my point is that people and the media have a big influence on what science gets done and what is career limitting. That said: Most of the "case" was nonesense, with the actual letter (which had a fraction of the signatures of the counter-letter) being mostly guilt by association. > Hsu personally promoted their study as relevant to George Floyd's killing and/or the subsequent protests. But George Floyd wasn't shot and the protests were about more than fatal shootings. It was relevant because Floy was a police killing. Racial bias in police killings (the vast majority are with guns) was the main thing the protestors I've heard were protesting.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- saghm 6y ago
  The problem with controlling for resume is that getting a strong resume requires getting those jobs in the first place. That doesn't disprove that there could be a bias against women and minorities that stopped them from achieving equivalent resumes in the first place.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
    It's something important to think about, but I don't think it holds in the case of beginning-of-career resumes. It's not about getting "those jobs", it's about getting admitted to one of the best programs. That's the filter. You're right that subsequent steps flow from that, generally. Though I would argue that there is much more space in CS / programming for the self-taught and self-motivated than there is in most other fields. Most other fields: you don't have the credentials? There's the door. Try being a biologist without a degree in biology!
lol2143651 6y ago
Saying you're discriminated against is more of a function of what you are told to perceive. Current generation blacks are more likely to say they are discriminated against than any generation prior. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/racial-discrimination-americans-views-shift-cbs-news-poll/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/racial-discrimination-americans...

NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago

This is BS. The study is from 2003 and isn't about elite tech jobs. There is evidence that, nowadays, there is a large bias in favor of women and under-represented minorities in, for example, academia and top-tier tech when controlling for resume.

tptacek 6y ago
Present that evidence, please. The comment you're trying to rebut did you that courtesy; repay it.
- NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
  This is a good point and a reasonable request! Here's one https://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360 https://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360 Note, when looking at this literature: there is a huge publication bias. Publishing a paper that fits the popular (in social sciences) narratives is easy, publishing one that goes against them (like the one I linked) is hard and may well be career suicide. Also, the bar for what constitutes good enough science in these areas is very low.
  - jakelazaroff 6y ago
    > Publishing a paper that fits the popular (in social sciences) narratives is easy, publishing one that goes against them (like the one I linked) is hard and may well be career suicide. The Occam’s Razor explanation for this is that the popular narratives are popular because most available evidence supports them.
    - exolymph 6y ago
      Yes, the person you're responding to made a point about precisely that — available evidence. The file-drawer effect is real and multifaceted, including political narrative strategy. If you don't think that editors consider this aspect of maintaining their journals' reputations, you are simply naive.
    - concordDance 6y ago
      > The Occam’s Razor explanation for this is that the popular narratives are popular because most available evidence supports them. That seems like a bit of abuse of Occam's razor. Narratives are popularized by the general media, not scientists. Just compare how popular the idea that IQ is meaningless and not heritable is amongst the general population and the media compared to those who actually study the topic full time at universities. Universities and people in them are not immune to pressure. Wasn't Hsu fired partly because he funded research into police shootings that ended up getting a politically incorrect result? Authors of unpopular results (Rind et al anyone?) often get attacked a lot, their research subject to a disproportionate level of scrutiny and it's very career limitting (or is at least rumoured to be, which is plenty of a chilling effect).
      - pseudalopex 6y ago
        Steve Hsu wasn't fired. He resigned from his position overseeing other people's research. He kept his position as a professor with tenure. Cesario and Johnson studied fatal shootings by police. Hsu personally promoted their study as relevant to George Floyd's killing and/or the subsequent protests. But George Floyd wasn't shot and the protests were about more than fatal shootings. That was only a small part of the case the graduate employee union presented against Hsu. The letter started by faculty[1] didn't mention it at all. [1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jb7w02E5GAdrJ_QnAokp7IerP_VBDridmQ-rI9M2TAE/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jb7w02E5GAdrJ_QnAokp7Ier...
        concordDance 6y ago
        Twas a forced resignation. I don't want to get too down into the weeds as my point is that people and the media have a big influence on what science gets done and what is career limitting. That said: Most of the "case" was nonesense, with the actual letter (which had a fraction of the signatures of the counter-letter) being mostly guilt by association. > Hsu personally promoted their study as relevant to George Floyd's killing and/or the subsequent protests. But George Floyd wasn't shot and the protests were about more than fatal shootings. It was relevant because Floy was a police killing. Racial bias in police killings (the vast majority are with guns) was the main thing the protestors I've heard were protesting.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
saghm 6y ago
The problem with controlling for resume is that getting a strong resume requires getting those jobs in the first place. That doesn't disprove that there could be a bias against women and minorities that stopped them from achieving equivalent resumes in the first place.
- NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
  It's something important to think about, but I don't think it holds in the case of beginning-of-career resumes. It's not about getting "those jobs", it's about getting admitted to one of the best programs. That's the filter. You're right that subsequent steps flow from that, generally. Though I would argue that there is much more space in CS / programming for the self-taught and self-motivated than there is in most other fields. Most other fields: you don't have the credentials? There's the door. Try being a biologist without a degree in biology!

lol2143651 6y ago

Saying you're discriminated against is more of a function of what you are told to perceive. Current generation blacks are more likely to say they are discriminated against than any generation prior. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/racial-discrimination-americans-views-shift-cbs-news-poll/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/racial-discrimination-americans...