5 ms·

It is dangerous that political differences are now being moralized. You vote for Biden? You're evil and should be fired. You vote for Trump? You're a Nazi and s

It is dangerous that political differences are now being moralized. You vote for Biden? You're evil and should be fired. You vote for Trump? You're a Nazi and should be fired. Then what? What's the next step? I used to read about the French Revolution in horror. Parisans cheered when a Guillotine dropped, for they thought it was the righteous thing to do. And the history repeated itself in China 55 years ago and then 35 years ago, all in the name of upholding superior morality. Are we going to repeat the history in the US?

loopz 6y ago
Who the next enemy is predictably being determined by the ruling party and Wall Street, and there's nothing anybody can do about that now that it's gone too far. If you wish to compare history, it's close to Weimar Republic, the social unrest, threats of violence, propaganda lies, full-on corruption and domination at cost of human health and lives. It's all sleight of hand, everybody gets fooled into a suckers rally that makes most current matters irrelevant. Ofc I hope I'm wrong, but just watch what they do.
- skinkestek 6y ago
  > Who the next enemy is predictably being determined by the ruling party and Wall Street, 1. If this was generally true the Wall street and Republicans started #metoo and I can't believe that. > and there's nothing anybody can do about that now that it's gone too far. 2. This is not only pessimistic but too pessimistic and also counterproductive (unless one wish to drive society faster to the edge.) > It's all sleight of hand, everybody gets fooled into a suckers rally that makes most current matters irrelevant. Ofc I hope I'm wrong, but just watch what they do. Kind of agree. I guess if you made a real poll between Americans on if they wanted 1. Trump 2. Biden 3. A randomly selected choice between 5 men and 5 women that were decent, smart, had succeeded in life despite being nice then I guess people would vote for 3 in the poll. The American system seems to favour bad compromises lately.
  - loopz 6y ago
    For leadership with integrity #metoo and #blacklivesmatter is about justice and fairness. Not about creating new enemies for personal gain.
    - skinkestek 6y ago
      I might have misunderstood you. In that case: have my apology and also know that I misunderstood you (and in that case: still don't understand you despite trying), so a little clarification might be helpful if you care :-)
      - loopz 6y ago
        There will be doubling down on creating new enemies, until everybody burns, unless people wise up fast.
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    American electoral system, same as in UK, is about 500 years old. It makes it unsafe to vote for your actual favourite candidate, because you don't get a second round... I always remind people that Maine's scandalous governor LePage never won 50% of the voter support and his first win was with merely 37% of the vote.
theplague42 6y ago
I sincerely don't know what you think politics would be except for morals put into law.
- dlivingston 6y ago
  We are humans first, Americans second, and Democrats/Republicans/whatever third. The issue is that many folks want to view others as $POLITICAL_PARTY first and human second.
  - theplague42 6y ago
    Are fetuses human? That's a political issue. Who is allowed to be American? That's a political issue. Hell, half of conservative political rhetoric is distinguishing between real and fake Americans.
    - dlivingston 6y ago
      That’s fine, and the mark of a well-functioning society is the ability to have those discussions calmly and rationally.
      - Spivak 6y ago
        You can only really have those kinds of discussions calmly if you're not at all affected by the decision. It doesn't have anything to do with a functioning society. If you're black it's hard to have a dispassionate discussion about stop-and-frisk or no-knock raids. If I point a gun to your head do you think we can stand there and have a calm and rational discussion about whether I should pull the trigger? Of course not! You're going to fight to protect yourself.
    - chillacy 6y ago
      I always find it curious how easy it is for beliefs seem to line up so smoothly along party lines... even unrelated ones like economic policy and religion all seem to line up in a very clean way in the US. Is there another universe where all the religious people are very pro-economic redistribution? That seems to be within reasonable interpretation of the teachings of Jesus.
runarberg 6y ago
I know it sucks. It reminds me of a quote often attributed to John F. Kennedy: > Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. And in a world where the choice is between Biden and Trump. It is increasingly tempting to vote for the Guillotine.
- DenisM 6y ago
  > It is increasingly tempting to vote for the Guillotine. It didn't work so well the last few times it was used - the English revolution, the French revolution, the Russian revolution, all ended up in a bloodbath, next one more gruesome than the last. I urge you to reconsider. Also I recommend "the revolutions" podcast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Duncan_(podcaster) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Duncan_(podcaster)
  - runarberg 6y ago
    France never returned back to monarchy, and Russia never reinstated the empire after the revolutions. Yes some awful people used the political turmoil to seize power in both cases—and similar thing would probably happen if Americans started chopping the heads of the rich—but in both cases the revolutions left a lasting mark, and both France and Russia are more democratic then they were during monarchy (although Russia is in serious regression at the moment). This is not necessary the case though, as seen after the Cuban or the Zapatista revolution in Chiapas, Mexico. At some point revolution becomes necessary, and if democratic means remain unavailable, this revolution will be violent. Horrible people using the political turmoil will become a risk people are willing to take in this growing frustration.
    - madhadron 6y ago
      > France never returned back to monarchy Napoleon III would like a word with you.
      - slavik81 6y ago
        French Revolution (1789–1799) Napoleon I, Emperor of the French (1804–1814) Louis XVIII, King of France (1814–1824) Charles X, King of France (1824–1830) Louis Philippe I, King of France (1830–1848) Napoleon III, Emperor of the French (1852–1870)
echaozh 6y ago
I think the moralization is due to the religious root of the American culture. Religion is all about morality, and the American people, especially those on the right side, invoke God too easily. Those on the left side, still think it's God that grant the America the privilege to herd all the people of the whole world, to teach the world what's right and wrong. If people in another country may be wrong and have to be taught what's right, well, how can people in another state avoid such error? How can people next door be always right, such as I am?
- mindfulhack 6y ago
  No, 'moralisation' comes from the emotions of our biology. Disgust, tribalism, groupthink, mob mentality - all the horrors are in our biology, right here, right now, inside everyone, in 2020. 'Godless' non-religious people on the left are extremely 'moral' and burn people at the stake via deplatforming and cancelling. Science and scientific culture of the last 50/100 years has helped, but even it's been hijacked by our monolithic emotional reality of tribalism and fear. Zooming out, scientific culture is a momentary lifting of a mountain one inch off the ground. The development of human nature is frozen in time compared to the development of science. Science has caught up to it, and has hit a wall which scientific papers alone cannot move. In fact, the analogy of throwing wads of paper at a wall and expecting it to move. That's the impact it's having. I fear there is not much we can do about human nature until we can physically change ourselves at the DNA level, to rid or regulate emotions like rage and disgust via CRISPR etc. There's pros and cons of being in the 'World State' or in the 'Savage Reservation'. (Brave New World reference.)

loopz 6y ago

Who the next enemy is predictably being determined by the ruling party and Wall Street, and there's nothing anybody can do about that now that it's gone too far. If you wish to compare history, it's close to Weimar Republic, the social unrest, threats of violence, propaganda lies, full-on corruption and domination at cost of human health and lives. It's all sleight of hand, everybody gets fooled into a suckers rally that makes most current matters irrelevant. Ofc I hope I'm wrong, but just watch what they do.

skinkestek 6y ago
> Who the next enemy is predictably being determined by the ruling party and Wall Street, 1. If this was generally true the Wall street and Republicans started #metoo and I can't believe that. > and there's nothing anybody can do about that now that it's gone too far. 2. This is not only pessimistic but too pessimistic and also counterproductive (unless one wish to drive society faster to the edge.) > It's all sleight of hand, everybody gets fooled into a suckers rally that makes most current matters irrelevant. Ofc I hope I'm wrong, but just watch what they do. Kind of agree. I guess if you made a real poll between Americans on if they wanted 1. Trump 2. Biden 3. A randomly selected choice between 5 men and 5 women that were decent, smart, had succeeded in life despite being nice then I guess people would vote for 3 in the poll. The American system seems to favour bad compromises lately.
- loopz 6y ago
  For leadership with integrity #metoo and #blacklivesmatter is about justice and fairness. Not about creating new enemies for personal gain.
  - skinkestek 6y ago
    I might have misunderstood you. In that case: have my apology and also know that I misunderstood you (and in that case: still don't understand you despite trying), so a little clarification might be helpful if you care :-)
    - loopz 6y ago
      There will be doubling down on creating new enemies, until everybody burns, unless people wise up fast.
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  American electoral system, same as in UK, is about 500 years old. It makes it unsafe to vote for your actual favourite candidate, because you don't get a second round... I always remind people that Maine's scandalous governor LePage never won 50% of the voter support and his first win was with merely 37% of the vote.

theplague42 6y ago

I sincerely don't know what you think politics would be except for morals put into law.

dlivingston 6y ago
We are humans first, Americans second, and Democrats/Republicans/whatever third. The issue is that many folks want to view others as $POLITICAL_PARTY first and human second.
- theplague42 6y ago
  Are fetuses human? That's a political issue. Who is allowed to be American? That's a political issue. Hell, half of conservative political rhetoric is distinguishing between real and fake Americans.
  - dlivingston 6y ago
    That’s fine, and the mark of a well-functioning society is the ability to have those discussions calmly and rationally.
    - Spivak 6y ago
      You can only really have those kinds of discussions calmly if you're not at all affected by the decision. It doesn't have anything to do with a functioning society. If you're black it's hard to have a dispassionate discussion about stop-and-frisk or no-knock raids. If I point a gun to your head do you think we can stand there and have a calm and rational discussion about whether I should pull the trigger? Of course not! You're going to fight to protect yourself.
  - chillacy 6y ago
    I always find it curious how easy it is for beliefs seem to line up so smoothly along party lines... even unrelated ones like economic policy and religion all seem to line up in a very clean way in the US. Is there another universe where all the religious people are very pro-economic redistribution? That seems to be within reasonable interpretation of the teachings of Jesus.

runarberg 6y ago

I know it sucks. It reminds me of a quote often attributed to John F. Kennedy: > Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. And in a world where the choice is between Biden and Trump. It is increasingly tempting to vote for the Guillotine.

DenisM 6y ago
> It is increasingly tempting to vote for the Guillotine. It didn't work so well the last few times it was used - the English revolution, the French revolution, the Russian revolution, all ended up in a bloodbath, next one more gruesome than the last. I urge you to reconsider. Also I recommend "the revolutions" podcast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Duncan_(podcaster) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Duncan_(podcaster)
- runarberg 6y ago
  France never returned back to monarchy, and Russia never reinstated the empire after the revolutions. Yes some awful people used the political turmoil to seize power in both cases—and similar thing would probably happen if Americans started chopping the heads of the rich—but in both cases the revolutions left a lasting mark, and both France and Russia are more democratic then they were during monarchy (although Russia is in serious regression at the moment). This is not necessary the case though, as seen after the Cuban or the Zapatista revolution in Chiapas, Mexico. At some point revolution becomes necessary, and if democratic means remain unavailable, this revolution will be violent. Horrible people using the political turmoil will become a risk people are willing to take in this growing frustration.
  - madhadron 6y ago
    > France never returned back to monarchy Napoleon III would like a word with you.
    - slavik81 6y ago
      French Revolution (1789–1799) Napoleon I, Emperor of the French (1804–1814) Louis XVIII, King of France (1814–1824) Charles X, King of France (1824–1830) Louis Philippe I, King of France (1830–1848) Napoleon III, Emperor of the French (1852–1870)

echaozh 6y ago

I think the moralization is due to the religious root of the American culture. Religion is all about morality, and the American people, especially those on the right side, invoke God too easily. Those on the left side, still think it's God that grant the America the privilege to herd all the people of the whole world, to teach the world what's right and wrong. If people in another country may be wrong and have to be taught what's right, well, how can people in another state avoid such error? How can people next door be always right, such as I am?

mindfulhack 6y ago
No, 'moralisation' comes from the emotions of our biology. Disgust, tribalism, groupthink, mob mentality - all the horrors are in our biology, right here, right now, inside everyone, in 2020. 'Godless' non-religious people on the left are extremely 'moral' and burn people at the stake via deplatforming and cancelling. Science and scientific culture of the last 50/100 years has helped, but even it's been hijacked by our monolithic emotional reality of tribalism and fear. Zooming out, scientific culture is a momentary lifting of a mountain one inch off the ground. The development of human nature is frozen in time compared to the development of science. Science has caught up to it, and has hit a wall which scientific papers alone cannot move. In fact, the analogy of throwing wads of paper at a wall and expecting it to move. That's the impact it's having. I fear there is not much we can do about human nature until we can physically change ourselves at the DNA level, to rid or regulate emotions like rage and disgust via CRISPR etc. There's pros and cons of being in the 'World State' or in the 'Savage Reservation'. (Brave New World reference.)