13 ms·

I tire of centrists, among chaos, claiming everything is being politicized. I'm sorry - once in a while bad things happen and a choice must be made.

curo 6y ago
A centrist isn't always someone who's avoiding working on problems or avoiding decisions. A centrist can be someone who believes that different people see different parts of various problems and that solutions can come from people who aren't subscribed to a set political party.
- Traster 6y ago
  That's not a centrist view, that's an independent view.
  - julianapostate 6y ago
    See! Even the definition of a centrist is political!
- pessimizer 6y ago
  Centrists see themselves as imminently reasonable, sure. But virtually everyone believes "that different people see different parts of various problems and that solutions can come from people who aren't subscribed to a set political party." It's not a defining characteristic of centrists, it's a a defining characteristic of people who think of themselves as reasonable. IMO, the defining characteristic of centrists is that they think that they're the only reasonable ones and that everyone else is an ideologue.
  - curo 6y ago
    At their worst, sure. At their best, it's someone who aspires to remain "centered" in their analysis, without letting it lead to arrogance over others.
coffeefirst 6y ago
Honestly, I think some people just want a break. And I can both respect that AND firmly believe that if a musician, for example, wants to make a comment on current events as part of their performance, they absolutely should.
alexpetralia 6y ago
I've been told that "taking a neutral position, when privileged, is unethical." (I understand the postmodern thrust here, and I actually to some degree agree with it, but at the limit this completely obliterates any pretense of objectivity - even within science.)
- bdcravens 6y ago
  Isn't centrism more a matter of compromise than neutrality?
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    Centrism is - I want it all position. Donald Trump is practically a centrist.
woofie11 6y ago
I don't think you understand the point of centrists. Centrists agree that choices need to be made. Centrists think that some of those choices should go in one direction, some in the other, and most in a direction not presented by either side. Centrists believe in logic, discourse, and evidence to get to choices, over ideology. Centrists believe in looking for solutions which work for everyone when possible. Etc. Everyone hates centrists, since if you disagree on charters OR abortion OR charters OR race OR police OR .... with someone on the left or on the right, they think you're a horrible person. You'll always disagree on at least one axis.
- gbrown 6y ago
  IMHO that’s usually just a platitude - got an example?
  - woofie11 6y ago
    Sure. Charter schools: They work great with proper checks-and-balances. They should be not-for-profits, follow extensive transparency laws, have salary caps, and strong civil rights protections. They should compete with public schools without restrictions beyond that. If public schools go under because of better competitors, more power to them! Medicine: Works great pure free market. Works great purely nationalized. What we don't want is a complex network of regulations from lobbyists combined with mandatory insurance (whether by government regulation or by practicality). Both the far-right and the far-left solutions would work great! We've landed in a no-man's land in between. Gun control: It's a reasonable policy, but rule-of-law should prevail. We've got a Constitution for a reason, and we should follow it, even if it feels unreasonable. If we disagree, we should amend it. Race: The left is correct about most of the problems, and bonkers about most of the solutions. We need to have an open national discourse about changes, and to do that, we need free speech and to get rid of cancel culture. The left's oppression of free speech contributes to the systemic oppression they're trying to eliminate. ... and so on. You don't need to agree with the above, but they're strong, principled stances, agreeing with neither side.
    - gbrown 6y ago
JPKab 6y ago
You've just summed up why being a moderate is such a miserable experience for most of us. These days, being a moderate isn't being in the middle on everything. Instead, being a moderate means that someone can't infer my position on gun control based on my position on universal health care. Because I'm not enough of an ideologue to have a consistently predictable menu of choices based on the tribe I find more affinity with, I'm always the bad guy for different reasons depending on the tribe I'm around.
- goatlover 6y ago
  Exactly, and you're not allowed to have a nuanced view on controversial issues.
- natechols 6y ago
  Nowadays I define my moderation as "somewhere between the libertarians and the democratic socialists", which of course would make me completely unacceptable to either of those groups.
- porknubbins 6y ago
  I don’t understand why is it so unusual to simply judge each issue according to your individual reason, morals and the best data you can find, but I also lack a lot of group joining instinct. Apparently both sides prefer loyalty to being right. I’ve been wearing masks since February and have at various times run afoul of both sides as they politicized the issue differently as time went by.
jupp0r 6y ago
The point is that choices should be made about singular policy items. Random example: I should be able to argue for second amendment rights with out buying into isolationist trade policies. The way things are right now the two come bundled together and legislative votes are based on partisanship, not policy.
- julianapostate 6y ago
  Nowaday political views are a lifestyle.
greyswan 6y ago
What choice are you referring to?
goatlover 6y ago
Centrists tend to be more pragmatic and prefer approaches that work, while those on the left and right are more ideological, and wish to conform the world to their ideas, regardless of the cost or feasibility. And anyone who disagrees is treated as a heretic, as if one side has the truth concerning the messy complexity of social reality.
- WalterSear 6y ago
  IMHE, centrists generally have a self-image of pragmatism, but are as ideologically driven as any other group.
supernova87a 6y ago
So, "silence is complicity"? That's pretty accusatory and offputting. But of course this debate has been going on a long time. And maybe yours are the more recent words echoing a past hero's opinion. In the words of MLK: "First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection...." I suppose it depends on whether you see current ills of society as at the level of segregation and outright violence against peoples (and need street-level action and peaceful revolution immediately), or more subtle things that affect everyone, like rich-vs-poor class differences growing (and are things to be solved through our deliberative political process). But back to the point, the problem with shouting down anyone who doesn't agree with you and/or labeling people who are not 100% on board with you as the hidden "enemy", is that you will later find out you weren't winning as much as you thought based on the silence. And some of that silent segment will find they can only express themselves when standing alone, safe in the voting booth, and you get a result like we have had for the last couple years. Worse, those that could've joined your side are put off by the aggression and withhold their vote for you.
- graeme 6y ago
  I don’t think King was arguing silence is violence. His argument was against those actively telling black people to wait, to tone things down, etc.
- handol 6y ago
  > So, "silence is complicity"? That's pretty accusatory and offputting. Yeah people don't like facing their complicity with the horror of the world, especially since it's not at all obvious how to fix it. It can feel like (and can actually be) pointless self-flagellation. But it's not incorrect.
rentonl 6y ago
Being a centrist isn't about avoiding change or believing in the status quo. It's about making changes based on rationality rather than emotion and ideology.
axaxs 6y ago
Or perhaps, I just hate both sides? I can't stand the crazy right wingers who think climate change is a hoax, that masks oppress people, etc. I can't stand left wingers who virtue signal constantly and call me x-phobic or x-ist for not agreeing with something. So yes, I'm apolitical because I truly hate both sides anymore. I think of it as polarization to the point of pushing people like me aside.
tropdrop 6y ago
And I tire of Twitter - the agent of that chaos - insisting I must always be "on," having a political position on everything all the time, and always ready to rally around wrong-doing. This is inhuman. I cannot always be on - I am not a machine. I cannot be useful to anyone when I am torn into anxious shreds by knowing about everything that is wrong in the world all at once. Our brains were built for knowing what's "bad" on a local level - not on a global, ~7.8 billion people level. It is inhuman for you to insist that I jump at the bit every time "bad things happen." I can only choose to pick certain hills which are most important to me, and I will die on them. You choose your things - you are welcome to die on them, too. Do not shame people for trying to survive this chaos that is bad enough with the world's population's problems, and amplified through social network's outrage machines that benefit from any (but especially psychologically traumatic) "engagement."
- jakkyboi 6y ago
  It's 100% okay to not be completely informed on an issue! If anyone is accosting you for that, then that's not okay or constructive. I'm not asking any more than that you be understanding that when our freedoms are under attack, ie currently, you are willing to make a choice and not complain because a lot is at stake.
- smitty1e 6y ago
  What I do for joy on Twitter, when a mind-reader has (yet again) ascribed strange opinions or motives to me, is sincerely forgive them for their behavior. Try it out. Stops a troll cold.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
smitty1e 6y ago
One could argue the point of inflection was here: “We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.” https://youtu.be/KrefKCaV8m4 https://youtu.be/KrefKCaV8m4
dimgl 6y ago
As a centrist I'm not completely apathetic to all politics and I have some strongly held viewpoints, even if they are moderate. So I'm not sure why you're tired of centrists. Centrists understand there's nuance in everything, and leaning too heavily in either direction can be unhealthy. I will say I also don't care for the daily discourse and politicization of everything.

curo 6y ago

A centrist isn't always someone who's avoiding working on problems or avoiding decisions. A centrist can be someone who believes that different people see different parts of various problems and that solutions can come from people who aren't subscribed to a set political party.

Traster 6y ago
That's not a centrist view, that's an independent view.
- julianapostate 6y ago
  See! Even the definition of a centrist is political!
pessimizer 6y ago
Centrists see themselves as imminently reasonable, sure. But virtually everyone believes "that different people see different parts of various problems and that solutions can come from people who aren't subscribed to a set political party." It's not a defining characteristic of centrists, it's a a defining characteristic of people who think of themselves as reasonable. IMO, the defining characteristic of centrists is that they think that they're the only reasonable ones and that everyone else is an ideologue.
- curo 6y ago
  At their worst, sure. At their best, it's someone who aspires to remain "centered" in their analysis, without letting it lead to arrogance over others.

coffeefirst 6y ago

Honestly, I think some people just want a break. And I can both respect that AND firmly believe that if a musician, for example, wants to make a comment on current events as part of their performance, they absolutely should.

alexpetralia 6y ago

I've been told that "taking a neutral position, when privileged, is unethical." (I understand the postmodern thrust here, and I actually to some degree agree with it, but at the limit this completely obliterates any pretense of objectivity - even within science.)

bdcravens 6y ago
Isn't centrism more a matter of compromise than neutrality?
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  Centrism is - I want it all position. Donald Trump is practically a centrist.

woofie11 6y ago

I don't think you understand the point of centrists. Centrists agree that choices need to be made. Centrists think that some of those choices should go in one direction, some in the other, and most in a direction not presented by either side. Centrists believe in logic, discourse, and evidence to get to choices, over ideology. Centrists believe in looking for solutions which work for everyone when possible. Etc. Everyone hates centrists, since if you disagree on charters OR abortion OR charters OR race OR police OR .... with someone on the left or on the right, they think you're a horrible person. You'll always disagree on at least one axis.

gbrown 6y ago
IMHO that’s usually just a platitude - got an example?
- woofie11 6y ago
  Sure. Charter schools: They work great with proper checks-and-balances. They should be not-for-profits, follow extensive transparency laws, have salary caps, and strong civil rights protections. They should compete with public schools without restrictions beyond that. If public schools go under because of better competitors, more power to them! Medicine: Works great pure free market. Works great purely nationalized. What we don't want is a complex network of regulations from lobbyists combined with mandatory insurance (whether by government regulation or by practicality). Both the far-right and the far-left solutions would work great! We've landed in a no-man's land in between. Gun control: It's a reasonable policy, but rule-of-law should prevail. We've got a Constitution for a reason, and we should follow it, even if it feels unreasonable. If we disagree, we should amend it. Race: The left is correct about most of the problems, and bonkers about most of the solutions. We need to have an open national discourse about changes, and to do that, we need free speech and to get rid of cancel culture. The left's oppression of free speech contributes to the systemic oppression they're trying to eliminate. ... and so on. You don't need to agree with the above, but they're strong, principled stances, agreeing with neither side.
  - gbrown 6y ago

JPKab 6y ago

You've just summed up why being a moderate is such a miserable experience for most of us. These days, being a moderate isn't being in the middle on everything. Instead, being a moderate means that someone can't infer my position on gun control based on my position on universal health care. Because I'm not enough of an ideologue to have a consistently predictable menu of choices based on the tribe I find more affinity with, I'm always the bad guy for different reasons depending on the tribe I'm around.

goatlover 6y ago
Exactly, and you're not allowed to have a nuanced view on controversial issues.
natechols 6y ago
Nowadays I define my moderation as "somewhere between the libertarians and the democratic socialists", which of course would make me completely unacceptable to either of those groups.
porknubbins 6y ago
I don’t understand why is it so unusual to simply judge each issue according to your individual reason, morals and the best data you can find, but I also lack a lot of group joining instinct. Apparently both sides prefer loyalty to being right. I’ve been wearing masks since February and have at various times run afoul of both sides as they politicized the issue differently as time went by.

jupp0r 6y ago

The point is that choices should be made about singular policy items. Random example: I should be able to argue for second amendment rights with out buying into isolationist trade policies. The way things are right now the two come bundled together and legislative votes are based on partisanship, not policy.

julianapostate 6y ago
Nowaday political views are a lifestyle.

greyswan 6y ago

What choice are you referring to?

goatlover 6y ago

Centrists tend to be more pragmatic and prefer approaches that work, while those on the left and right are more ideological, and wish to conform the world to their ideas, regardless of the cost or feasibility. And anyone who disagrees is treated as a heretic, as if one side has the truth concerning the messy complexity of social reality.

WalterSear 6y ago
IMHE, centrists generally have a self-image of pragmatism, but are as ideologically driven as any other group.

supernova87a 6y ago

So, "silence is complicity"? That's pretty accusatory and offputting. But of course this debate has been going on a long time. And maybe yours are the more recent words echoing a past hero's opinion. In the words of MLK: "First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection...." I suppose it depends on whether you see current ills of society as at the level of segregation and outright violence against peoples (and need street-level action and peaceful revolution immediately), or more subtle things that affect everyone, like rich-vs-poor class differences growing (and are things to be solved through our deliberative political process). But back to the point, the problem with shouting down anyone who doesn't agree with you and/or labeling people who are not 100% on board with you as the hidden "enemy", is that you will later find out you weren't winning as much as you thought based on the silence. And some of that silent segment will find they can only express themselves when standing alone, safe in the voting booth, and you get a result like we have had for the last couple years. Worse, those that could've joined your side are put off by the aggression and withhold their vote for you.

graeme 6y ago
I don’t think King was arguing silence is violence. His argument was against those actively telling black people to wait, to tone things down, etc.
handol 6y ago
> So, "silence is complicity"? That's pretty accusatory and offputting. Yeah people don't like facing their complicity with the horror of the world, especially since it's not at all obvious how to fix it. It can feel like (and can actually be) pointless self-flagellation. But it's not incorrect.

rentonl 6y ago

Being a centrist isn't about avoiding change or believing in the status quo. It's about making changes based on rationality rather than emotion and ideology.

axaxs 6y ago

Or perhaps, I just hate both sides? I can't stand the crazy right wingers who think climate change is a hoax, that masks oppress people, etc. I can't stand left wingers who virtue signal constantly and call me x-phobic or x-ist for not agreeing with something. So yes, I'm apolitical because I truly hate both sides anymore. I think of it as polarization to the point of pushing people like me aside.

tropdrop 6y ago

And I tire of Twitter - the agent of that chaos - insisting I must always be "on," having a political position on everything all the time, and always ready to rally around wrong-doing. This is inhuman. I cannot always be on - I am not a machine. I cannot be useful to anyone when I am torn into anxious shreds by knowing about everything that is wrong in the world all at once. Our brains were built for knowing what's "bad" on a local level - not on a global, ~7.8 billion people level. It is inhuman for you to insist that I jump at the bit every time "bad things happen." I can only choose to pick certain hills which are most important to me, and I will die on them. You choose your things - you are welcome to die on them, too. Do not shame people for trying to survive this chaos that is bad enough with the world's population's problems, and amplified through social network's outrage machines that benefit from any (but especially psychologically traumatic) "engagement."

jakkyboi 6y ago
It's 100% okay to not be completely informed on an issue! If anyone is accosting you for that, then that's not okay or constructive. I'm not asking any more than that you be understanding that when our freedoms are under attack, ie currently, you are willing to make a choice and not complain because a lot is at stake.
smitty1e 6y ago
What I do for joy on Twitter, when a mind-reader has (yet again) ascribed strange opinions or motives to me, is sincerely forgive them for their behavior. Try it out. Stops a troll cold.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

smitty1e 6y ago

One could argue the point of inflection was here: “We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.” https://youtu.be/KrefKCaV8m4 https://youtu.be/KrefKCaV8m4

dimgl 6y ago

As a centrist I'm not completely apathetic to all politics and I have some strongly held viewpoints, even if they are moderate. So I'm not sure why you're tired of centrists. Centrists understand there's nuance in everything, and leaning too heavily in either direction can be unhealthy. I will say I also don't care for the daily discourse and politicization of everything.