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How relevant is ARM in the long run if Apple is pursuing its own design / CPU architecture ("Apple Silicon") and the Chinese lead by Huawei are forced by US san

by chvid 6y ago

How relevant is ARM in the long run if Apple is pursuing its own design / CPU architecture ("Apple Silicon") and the Chinese lead by Huawei are forced by US sanctions also to create their own design / architecture?

chvid 6y ago
Or let me ask in different way: why use ARM if you control and build the whole stack from electronics to operating system to the software running on it? The core instruction set is from the 80es. Surely you can come up with some better today were you to design it from scratch?
- Alupis 6y ago
  > Surely you can come up with some better today were you to design it from scratch? Ya, but then you have to develop and support the entire ecosystem around just the instruction set. That means compilers, languages, runtimes, and more - which is not a trivial undertaking. Perhaps Apple could pull it off, but it would take a very long time to get something entirely new stable enough, and performant enough, to compete with anything being offered today. Plus, it's not Apple's focus and doesn't really benefit them much either. Nobody builds iOS apps in assembler - but they expect it to run fast. That takes a very well tuned compiler, and a very well refined CPU architecture.
- mjw1007 6y ago
  The 64-bit ARM ISA was basically redone from scratch, around 2010. It isn't "mostly the same instructions but with 64-bit registers" the way 64-bit x86 is.
  - earthscienceman 6y ago
    Do you (or anyone else) know where I can read about that?
    - mjw1007 6y ago
      The reference manual is at https://developer.arm.com/documentation/ddi0487/latest/ https://developer.arm.com/documentation/ddi0487/latest/
    - trasz 6y ago
      Just google for "ARMv8". (Also, it's not like ARM was a single instruction set before either. For quite some time ARM had two totally different instruction encodings, the "usual one", and Thumb2, with microcontrollers usually only supporting the latter.)
- nicoburns 6y ago
  > why use ARM if you control and build the whole stack from electronics to operating system to the software running on it? Why not use ARM if the alternative is to build an entire software stack from scratch. ARMs licensing fees are very reasonable, and then you get most of the free software ecosystem for free.
nightfly 6y ago
ARM will continue to be relevant for embedded stuff for a long time.
- mtgx 6y ago
  True, but it's also true that "embedded stuff" will be the first market to fall to RISC-V chipmakers, in classic innovator's dilemma fashion. Western Digital for instance already announced since last year that it will use RISC-V chips for its drives. Nvidia also announced that it will use a RISC-V controller for its GPUs.
ryanmarsh 6y ago
ARM is the IP house for the ARM architecture. Control of ARM means control over all the IP (lots of patents) for ARM based processors used across many industries in many devices. You can imagine what might happen if an anti-competitive player controlled the major competing architecture to x86. "He who controls the spice controls the universe." etc, etc...
ksec 6y ago
Apple is still using ARM. And benefits greatly from the ARM ecosystem from compiler to software compatibilities. Having their own design doesn't mean they dont rely on ARM. No idea about the 2nd part of the question though.
formerly_proven 6y ago
Doesn't Apple have a perpetual license to their current ISA anyway? And it's not like Apple would need external help to refine/develop the current ISA.
Alupis 6y ago
The number of units Apple sells with ARM designs inside (all devices - desktops, laptops, tablets, phones, and more) are dwarfed in comparison to the ARM ecosystem at large. ARM isn't dependent on Apple for anything really. Even your toaster and fridge probably have ARM licensed designs in them. Your Smartwatch certainly does, and the billions of non-Apple smartphones too. > Chinese lead by Huawei are forced by US sanctions also to create their own design Pretty sure they were heading that way even without US sanctions. Steal the IP, then make a competing product while paying zero licensing fees to ARM.
- p1mrx 6y ago
  > Pretty sure they were heading that way even without US sanctions. Steal the IP, then make a competing product while paying zero licensing fees to ARM. Huawei would be in a better long-term position if they chose RISC-V versus IP theft.
  - Alupis 6y ago
    Maybe... RISC-V might be up-and-coming, but current-day ARM designs are battle tested already and will continue to be very useful for the foreseeable future. Stealing the IP now allows them to produce great CPU's today with far less cost. It's not trivial to build a CPU. Particularly if there is no existing industry with expertise in this field within your country.

by chvid 6y ago

chvid 6y ago

Or let me ask in different way: why use ARM if you control and build the whole stack from electronics to operating system to the software running on it? The core instruction set is from the 80es. Surely you can come up with some better today were you to design it from scratch?

Alupis 6y ago
> Surely you can come up with some better today were you to design it from scratch? Ya, but then you have to develop and support the entire ecosystem around just the instruction set. That means compilers, languages, runtimes, and more - which is not a trivial undertaking. Perhaps Apple could pull it off, but it would take a very long time to get something entirely new stable enough, and performant enough, to compete with anything being offered today. Plus, it's not Apple's focus and doesn't really benefit them much either. Nobody builds iOS apps in assembler - but they expect it to run fast. That takes a very well tuned compiler, and a very well refined CPU architecture.
mjw1007 6y ago
The 64-bit ARM ISA was basically redone from scratch, around 2010. It isn't "mostly the same instructions but with 64-bit registers" the way 64-bit x86 is.
- earthscienceman 6y ago
  Do you (or anyone else) know where I can read about that?
  - mjw1007 6y ago
    The reference manual is at https://developer.arm.com/documentation/ddi0487/latest/ https://developer.arm.com/documentation/ddi0487/latest/
  - trasz 6y ago
    Just google for "ARMv8". (Also, it's not like ARM was a single instruction set before either. For quite some time ARM had two totally different instruction encodings, the "usual one", and Thumb2, with microcontrollers usually only supporting the latter.)
nicoburns 6y ago
> why use ARM if you control and build the whole stack from electronics to operating system to the software running on it? Why not use ARM if the alternative is to build an entire software stack from scratch. ARMs licensing fees are very reasonable, and then you get most of the free software ecosystem for free.

nightfly 6y ago

ARM will continue to be relevant for embedded stuff for a long time.

mtgx 6y ago
True, but it's also true that "embedded stuff" will be the first market to fall to RISC-V chipmakers, in classic innovator's dilemma fashion. Western Digital for instance already announced since last year that it will use RISC-V chips for its drives. Nvidia also announced that it will use a RISC-V controller for its GPUs.

ryanmarsh 6y ago

ARM is the IP house for the ARM architecture. Control of ARM means control over all the IP (lots of patents) for ARM based processors used across many industries in many devices. You can imagine what might happen if an anti-competitive player controlled the major competing architecture to x86. "He who controls the spice controls the universe." etc, etc...

ksec 6y ago

Apple is still using ARM. And benefits greatly from the ARM ecosystem from compiler to software compatibilities. Having their own design doesn't mean they dont rely on ARM. No idea about the 2nd part of the question though.

formerly_proven 6y ago

Doesn't Apple have a perpetual license to their current ISA anyway? And it's not like Apple would need external help to refine/develop the current ISA.

Alupis 6y ago

The number of units Apple sells with ARM designs inside (all devices - desktops, laptops, tablets, phones, and more) are dwarfed in comparison to the ARM ecosystem at large. ARM isn't dependent on Apple for anything really. Even your toaster and fridge probably have ARM licensed designs in them. Your Smartwatch certainly does, and the billions of non-Apple smartphones too. > Chinese lead by Huawei are forced by US sanctions also to create their own design Pretty sure they were heading that way even without US sanctions. Steal the IP, then make a competing product while paying zero licensing fees to ARM.

p1mrx 6y ago
> Pretty sure they were heading that way even without US sanctions. Steal the IP, then make a competing product while paying zero licensing fees to ARM. Huawei would be in a better long-term position if they chose RISC-V versus IP theft.
- Alupis 6y ago
  Maybe... RISC-V might be up-and-coming, but current-day ARM designs are battle tested already and will continue to be very useful for the foreseeable future. Stealing the IP now allows them to produce great CPU's today with far less cost. It's not trivial to build a CPU. Particularly if there is no existing industry with expertise in this field within your country.