4 ms·

Mostly due to the media being very divisive. People get dragged unknowningly (mostly) into these media/thought bubbles on IG and other platforms... of course th

Mostly due to the media being very divisive. People get dragged unknowningly (mostly) into these media/thought bubbles on IG and other platforms... of course things will get divisive. And it's self-perpetuating, because the leaders of each thoughtbubble are getting paid/making income from posting the same bubble thoughts that their followers love.

fennecfoxen 6y ago
TFA notes: "58 percent of Americans want to live in either a suburban area or a small town, and another 28 percent wanted a rural area. The turn away from cities is a 55 percent drop from 2018." Through what mechanism do you connect your proposed explanation of "the media" and its "thought bubbles" to this result?
- techsupporter 6y ago
  Not the person you're replying to, but my guess is this: "The media," one or two outlets in particular, has been very strenuously playing up the "astounding lawlessness" and "terrible conditions" that are supposedly "ravaging" cities. Living in one that's been the subject of thousands of minutes of talking-head coverage...this is surprising to me. I have friends who live elsewhere who partake of news from those outlets and they are absolutely convinced that I am living in a doomed hellscape from which there is no relief. No amount of my telling them that I look out my window and my city has not completely burned to the ground disabuses them of this belief. (There is absolutely nowhere in my city that I cannot or do not feel comfortable going.) A lot of media reports are also linking this with COVID response and implying, though not stating, that the virus is far more rampant inside cities, even though where I live is doing better, per-capita, than any of our suburban neighbors both on case rates and testing throughput. Receiving this constant drumbeat of "cities are absolutely fucked, here's some stock footage of people breaking windows" is bound to influence poll results.
  - xagin03 6y ago
    If it is so painfully obvious to city residence how wrong the narrative is why are so many people fleeing the cities? Semi-rural and rural homes are selling like I've never seen before. Crappy modulars in the mid-west last maybe a week on the market; places that would have taken months and a couple price drops to sell get multiple offers and vanish. Home builders are busy despite covid-19. They're building on rural lots that have sat empty for years. You can't get a modular home builder to call you back right now; they're too busy filling orders. You know who the buyers are? Refugees from coastal cities.
  - WWLink 6y ago
    Eh, my favorite is the meme that San Francisco is covered in shit and homeless people. Oh yeah, and if you get on a bart train you'll get jabbed with needles and covered with poop by homeless people.
    - whynotkeithberg 6y ago
      Seriously... I lived in the bay for 10 years dealing with that. Now i've moved up tot Redding and everyone is sure the homeless here are everywhere and causing all sorts of crime even though it's the furthest thing from the trutth. The homeless here just want some where to camp they won't be assaulted by police and bothered by all the nosy rednecks.
      - WWLink 6y ago
        Apparently I should have said that I was ridiculing the people who constantly say that. I have ridden many bart trains. Every now and then I'd smell pee - and the bart station bathrooms are biohazards for sure, but I've never seen needles or poop on a bart train before lol.
        fennecfoxen 6y ago
        I was not a major BART rider and cannot comment in depth but this is a thing that happened. https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Human-waste-shuts-down-BART-escalators-3735981.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Human-waste-shuts-dow...
    - fennecfoxen 6y ago
      There is a real homelessness situation in San Francisco, and it does have some of the effects you describe at least sometimes. The question is its scale. While my experience is now years out of date, I think part of the way this understanding comes about is visitors and tourists are more likely to encounter the homeless people in touristy areas (particularly if they start at Powell St for the cable cars and make the mistake of going southwest, but also in the Haight-Ashbury) while the well-off residents tend to enjoy the city in different ways, and end up in different places than the homeless. Did you ever see the maps of tourist-vs-local photography for San Francisco? There is a huge disparity in the way they interact with the city. The major complaints about homelessness and needles from residents seem to come when the residents are now parents, and there are needles on the playgrounds in any quantity.
  - jmckib 6y ago
    I've been struggling with this recently. I'm traveling through New York state in a bit, and my in-laws warned me not to go to New York City because it's being looted and burned to the ground. I wasn't planning to visit anyway, but I was really puzzled by what they said because last I heard the protests and looting fizzled out over a month ago, but apparently on Fox News they keep playing the same clips from months ago (or sometimes even from other countries) while claiming that this is happening right now all over America. Pretty scary times we live in when such a large proportion of the population is completely disconnected from reality in such a basic way. I'm used to having political disagreements, but this is something else.
  - fennecfoxen 6y ago
    I'd be willing to ascribe them nonzero influence of the sort that you have described, but compared to the pandemic influences, it seems almost trivial. Like the authors of this article, I think the crux of the matter is that city-dwellers now have to deal with a lot more stringent antivirus measures affecting them much more often on a much more regular basis, relative to suburbanites. As a city dweller who has done a reasonably good job of adapting (replacing my use of NYC's public transit with a bicycle, for instance) I sympathize. I am paying lots of money in rent, and I am no longer realizing the benefits of living close to the office, or the benefits of living near interesting and unique shops and restaurants. Even the benefits of living near nice parks is a little bit muted. Instead, I find the space I have committed to as part of my lease is not quite big enough, now that I'm expected to make an office in it every day as well, and I find that I could really use some more outdoor space that I could enjoy by myself.
    - techsupporter 6y ago
      Oh, I completely agree that some of that shift is because of this pandemic and its effects. I just also think that it is gut-level reacting, particularly since humans are pretty bad at long-term thinking. I've had those same thoughts, especially since my household sold our house and our last car a few years ago to move to a mixed-use development near a train station. But I also remember that there are reasons why we did that and, even with the cool shops and tasty restaurants temporarily closed, those reasons still exist. We still have parks and grocery stores to walk to, still don't have to drive, and so on. This, too, shall pass (assuming we can all get it together for a few months). But, anyway, turning back to your broader point, I agree that some people will reevaluate the decisions they made that led them to this point. And there may even be a shift if this drags on for two or three years--which it had better not--but I think a large part of this polling is unease, a lot of it externally-influenced, instead of calm thought. I am biased, of course; we do not plan to move from the city where we live, so that plays into our thinking.
  - ecopoesis 6y ago
    There is a large portion of the US that thinks all our cities look like Gotham from Tim Burton's 1989 version of Batman. Non-city dwellers don't understand that cities have gotten continually safer and are generally nice places to live. A small anecdote: I know someone from Norfolk, VA who was visiting Massachusetts. He was very concerned that he would be shot if he walked around Charlestown (the Boston neighborhood) which is insane. There's a lot wrong with Charlestown (gentrification, Sullivan Square, New Rutherford) but Irish gang wars don't make the list and probably haven't for 20-30 years.
    - ngold 6y ago
      The funny part is some of wish we could visit super shady new york in the 70's. But now I hear it's basically disneyland.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
    Yeah, this is a real thing. I live in Portland which certain right wing outlets love to demonize. My parents have been out here to visit multiple times. They've seen how nice the city is in general with their own eyes. I still have to assure them it's not all Blackhawk Down outside my front door every time we have a call. It's infuriating but it just is what it is. Particularly the older generation has had this image of cities being overrun by lawless gangs since the 80s drilled into their heads by so much media they'll believe it over their own first hand experiences.
mc32 6y ago
This is more about bonds fraying due to quarantine induced isolation. Urban dwellers tend to not know their physically proximate neighbors, whereas suburban dwellers do, so given this imposition, urban dwellers feel more isolated and alone than their suburban counterparts which is somewhat counterintuitive given people’s preconception that suburban dwellers live in isolation from each other.
- ummonk 6y ago
  From the article, it appears urban and suburbans are roughly equally likely to know their neighbors (56% -> 47% for urbanites and 48% -> 52% for suburbanites). It's rural people that know their neighbors better.
- ehnto 6y ago
  I guess I've lived at both ends of the spectrum, but it's not surprising to me that city dwellers are more isolated. In rural areas, you have no choice but to know your neighbors. You'll see them regularly, whether you like it or not, because there's only a handful of local stores. It's that repetition that builds trust and opportunity to slowly build a friendship up, and eventually become part of a community. In the city, you get relative anonymity through sheer numbers. On one hand you get to blend into the crowd, but on the other hand you don't get to interact with the crowd. You have to luck, or maneuver, your way into a social circle of trust to get any kind of serious bonding. Even then, you may just be an isolated pod of people, still not feeling directly part of the community, you just walk through. This is why I've always found the idea of not making friends with your workmates to be really backwards. They're pretty much your only social circle when you first get to a city. You're going to see them 5 days a week, what better group of people to bond with. You won't get that anywhere else in a city.
- jiscariot 6y ago
  Anecdotally, my preconception is that suburban/exurban counterparts know their neighbors a little more because there tends to be less age variance in newer developments vs. 100-year old neighborhoods. A new townhouse development goes up in a suburb/exurb and everyone that moves in is essentially 28-38, increasing social cohesion, but losing some diversity. My 100+ year-old neighborhood houses college students to people in their seventies.

fennecfoxen 6y ago

TFA notes: "58 percent of Americans want to live in either a suburban area or a small town, and another 28 percent wanted a rural area. The turn away from cities is a 55 percent drop from 2018." Through what mechanism do you connect your proposed explanation of "the media" and its "thought bubbles" to this result?

techsupporter 6y ago
Not the person you're replying to, but my guess is this: "The media," one or two outlets in particular, has been very strenuously playing up the "astounding lawlessness" and "terrible conditions" that are supposedly "ravaging" cities. Living in one that's been the subject of thousands of minutes of talking-head coverage...this is surprising to me. I have friends who live elsewhere who partake of news from those outlets and they are absolutely convinced that I am living in a doomed hellscape from which there is no relief. No amount of my telling them that I look out my window and my city has not completely burned to the ground disabuses them of this belief. (There is absolutely nowhere in my city that I cannot or do not feel comfortable going.) A lot of media reports are also linking this with COVID response and implying, though not stating, that the virus is far more rampant inside cities, even though where I live is doing better, per-capita, than any of our suburban neighbors both on case rates and testing throughput. Receiving this constant drumbeat of "cities are absolutely fucked, here's some stock footage of people breaking windows" is bound to influence poll results.
- xagin03 6y ago
  If it is so painfully obvious to city residence how wrong the narrative is why are so many people fleeing the cities? Semi-rural and rural homes are selling like I've never seen before. Crappy modulars in the mid-west last maybe a week on the market; places that would have taken months and a couple price drops to sell get multiple offers and vanish. Home builders are busy despite covid-19. They're building on rural lots that have sat empty for years. You can't get a modular home builder to call you back right now; they're too busy filling orders. You know who the buyers are? Refugees from coastal cities.
- WWLink 6y ago
  Eh, my favorite is the meme that San Francisco is covered in shit and homeless people. Oh yeah, and if you get on a bart train you'll get jabbed with needles and covered with poop by homeless people.
  - whynotkeithberg 6y ago
    Seriously... I lived in the bay for 10 years dealing with that. Now i've moved up tot Redding and everyone is sure the homeless here are everywhere and causing all sorts of crime even though it's the furthest thing from the trutth. The homeless here just want some where to camp they won't be assaulted by police and bothered by all the nosy rednecks.
    - WWLink 6y ago
      Apparently I should have said that I was ridiculing the people who constantly say that. I have ridden many bart trains. Every now and then I'd smell pee - and the bart station bathrooms are biohazards for sure, but I've never seen needles or poop on a bart train before lol.
      - fennecfoxen 6y ago
        I was not a major BART rider and cannot comment in depth but this is a thing that happened. https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Human-waste-shuts-down-BART-escalators-3735981.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Human-waste-shuts-dow...
  - fennecfoxen 6y ago
    There is a real homelessness situation in San Francisco, and it does have some of the effects you describe at least sometimes. The question is its scale. While my experience is now years out of date, I think part of the way this understanding comes about is visitors and tourists are more likely to encounter the homeless people in touristy areas (particularly if they start at Powell St for the cable cars and make the mistake of going southwest, but also in the Haight-Ashbury) while the well-off residents tend to enjoy the city in different ways, and end up in different places than the homeless. Did you ever see the maps of tourist-vs-local photography for San Francisco? There is a huge disparity in the way they interact with the city. The major complaints about homelessness and needles from residents seem to come when the residents are now parents, and there are needles on the playgrounds in any quantity.
- jmckib 6y ago
  I've been struggling with this recently. I'm traveling through New York state in a bit, and my in-laws warned me not to go to New York City because it's being looted and burned to the ground. I wasn't planning to visit anyway, but I was really puzzled by what they said because last I heard the protests and looting fizzled out over a month ago, but apparently on Fox News they keep playing the same clips from months ago (or sometimes even from other countries) while claiming that this is happening right now all over America. Pretty scary times we live in when such a large proportion of the population is completely disconnected from reality in such a basic way. I'm used to having political disagreements, but this is something else.
- fennecfoxen 6y ago
  I'd be willing to ascribe them nonzero influence of the sort that you have described, but compared to the pandemic influences, it seems almost trivial. Like the authors of this article, I think the crux of the matter is that city-dwellers now have to deal with a lot more stringent antivirus measures affecting them much more often on a much more regular basis, relative to suburbanites. As a city dweller who has done a reasonably good job of adapting (replacing my use of NYC's public transit with a bicycle, for instance) I sympathize. I am paying lots of money in rent, and I am no longer realizing the benefits of living close to the office, or the benefits of living near interesting and unique shops and restaurants. Even the benefits of living near nice parks is a little bit muted. Instead, I find the space I have committed to as part of my lease is not quite big enough, now that I'm expected to make an office in it every day as well, and I find that I could really use some more outdoor space that I could enjoy by myself.
  - techsupporter 6y ago
    Oh, I completely agree that some of that shift is because of this pandemic and its effects. I just also think that it is gut-level reacting, particularly since humans are pretty bad at long-term thinking. I've had those same thoughts, especially since my household sold our house and our last car a few years ago to move to a mixed-use development near a train station. But I also remember that there are reasons why we did that and, even with the cool shops and tasty restaurants temporarily closed, those reasons still exist. We still have parks and grocery stores to walk to, still don't have to drive, and so on. This, too, shall pass (assuming we can all get it together for a few months). But, anyway, turning back to your broader point, I agree that some people will reevaluate the decisions they made that led them to this point. And there may even be a shift if this drags on for two or three years--which it had better not--but I think a large part of this polling is unease, a lot of it externally-influenced, instead of calm thought. I am biased, of course; we do not plan to move from the city where we live, so that plays into our thinking.
- ecopoesis 6y ago
  There is a large portion of the US that thinks all our cities look like Gotham from Tim Burton's 1989 version of Batman. Non-city dwellers don't understand that cities have gotten continually safer and are generally nice places to live. A small anecdote: I know someone from Norfolk, VA who was visiting Massachusetts. He was very concerned that he would be shot if he walked around Charlestown (the Boston neighborhood) which is insane. There's a lot wrong with Charlestown (gentrification, Sullivan Square, New Rutherford) but Irish gang wars don't make the list and probably haven't for 20-30 years.
  - ngold 6y ago
    The funny part is some of wish we could visit super shady new york in the 70's. But now I hear it's basically disneyland.
- jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
  Yeah, this is a real thing. I live in Portland which certain right wing outlets love to demonize. My parents have been out here to visit multiple times. They've seen how nice the city is in general with their own eyes. I still have to assure them it's not all Blackhawk Down outside my front door every time we have a call. It's infuriating but it just is what it is. Particularly the older generation has had this image of cities being overrun by lawless gangs since the 80s drilled into their heads by so much media they'll believe it over their own first hand experiences.

mc32 6y ago

This is more about bonds fraying due to quarantine induced isolation. Urban dwellers tend to not know their physically proximate neighbors, whereas suburban dwellers do, so given this imposition, urban dwellers feel more isolated and alone than their suburban counterparts which is somewhat counterintuitive given people’s preconception that suburban dwellers live in isolation from each other.

ummonk 6y ago
From the article, it appears urban and suburbans are roughly equally likely to know their neighbors (56% -> 47% for urbanites and 48% -> 52% for suburbanites). It's rural people that know their neighbors better.
ehnto 6y ago
I guess I've lived at both ends of the spectrum, but it's not surprising to me that city dwellers are more isolated. In rural areas, you have no choice but to know your neighbors. You'll see them regularly, whether you like it or not, because there's only a handful of local stores. It's that repetition that builds trust and opportunity to slowly build a friendship up, and eventually become part of a community. In the city, you get relative anonymity through sheer numbers. On one hand you get to blend into the crowd, but on the other hand you don't get to interact with the crowd. You have to luck, or maneuver, your way into a social circle of trust to get any kind of serious bonding. Even then, you may just be an isolated pod of people, still not feeling directly part of the community, you just walk through. This is why I've always found the idea of not making friends with your workmates to be really backwards. They're pretty much your only social circle when you first get to a city. You're going to see them 5 days a week, what better group of people to bond with. You won't get that anywhere else in a city.
jiscariot 6y ago
Anecdotally, my preconception is that suburban/exurban counterparts know their neighbors a little more because there tends to be less age variance in newer developments vs. 100-year old neighborhoods. A new townhouse development goes up in a suburb/exurb and everyone that moves in is essentially 28-38, increasing social cohesion, but losing some diversity. My 100+ year-old neighborhood houses college students to people in their seventies.