48 ms·

I know this article is about the waters off Korea, but I noticed a similar thing flying over the South China Sea, in particular the Tokyo-Bangkok route. Flying

by vbtemp 6y ago

I know this article is about the waters off Korea, but I noticed a similar thing flying over the South China Sea, in particular the Tokyo-Bangkok route. Flying late at night over the SCS, and then peering out the window from 40k ft, you see endless lights - thousands and thousands of them. At first I thought I was over land, but then checked the map. The next trip I noticed the same thing, and then the same. It was literally tens of thousands of these fishing trawlers, stretching as far as the eye can see. Presumably all Chinese, and also presumably present not just to trawl for seafood, but to establish facts on the sea. It was truly frightening and shocking.

stronglikedan 6y ago
So much light that it can be seen from space! [0] [0] https://qz.com/1278321/an-image-from-space-reveals-the-fishing-industrys-massive-scale/ https://qz.com/1278321/an-image-from-space-reveals-the-fishi...
mytailorisrich 6y ago
I'm not expert on air routes but Bangkok to Tokyo sounds like it would go over the North part of the South China Sea, near Hainan then along the coast of China. So not really where the flashpoints are. Not sure what would be frightening and shocking apart perhaps from the potential overfishing, which is unfortunately widespread worldwide. I'm sure that Vietnam, especially, and other neighbouring countries also have extensive fishing fleets in the South China Sea at large.
- vbtemp 6y ago
  It goes a little farther south and then hangs a right turn to fly toward BKK from due East. So this was more from the south-central portion of the region. The "shocking" part was just the astounding number of vessels, stretching beyond the horizon.
yorwba 6y ago
> Presumably all Chinese That seems unlikely considering that Vietnam's entire coastline forms the western border of the South China Sea, so that's where they're most likely to fish. The Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Indonesia also border the sea and occasionally stop fishing boats in what they consider their territorial waters. China probably has the largest fleet, but that doesn't mean the other countries are just watching them fish without doing anything.
- jvanderbot 6y ago
  OP/TFA implied that it was indeed Chinese, by encroaching on territorial waters and crowding out native fleets. At least that was my reading of the article and the above comment.
  - yorwba 6y ago
    Yes, and I was arguing against that idea. The other countries didn't suddenly stop fishing in the area. And FWIW all of them are about equally "native" to the region, as in, people from all the surrounding coasts have been fishing there for centuries. Just the scale is new.
nabla9 6y ago
Many of those ships have crews that are part of the People’s Armed Forces Maritime Militia (PAFMM). The militia are organized and commanded directly by the PLA's local military commands. They don't normally carry weapons, but they have military communications equipment and readiness to support PLA Navy. https://www.andrewerickson.com/2016/03/chinas-maritime-militia-our-most-extensive-detailed-analysis-yet/ https://www.andrewerickson.com/2016/03/chinas-maritime-milit...
- derefr 6y ago
  How different is that from the US Coast Guard's (and especially regular merchant ships whose crews are part of the Coast Guard Reserve's) wartime function? I would suppose that all organized merchant-marine escort fleets are trained to cooperate/coordinate with their country's Navy; if not just to "get the heck out of the way, this area is about to be under attack." Also, AFAIK, it's a de-facto "law of the sea" that pretty much all ships with transponders—no matter the flag they fly—will willingly act as relays for other ships that cannot communicate, in order to facilitate search-and-rescue. Same with planes. It's a whole part of their signalling codes.
  - nabla9 6y ago
    There are so many of them and they are more closely integrated to PLA. The encrypted military communication equipment they carry is designed works even during wartime operations under jamming.
    - rfoo 6y ago
      It's quite interesting to see those fleet being analyzed and claimed to be "more closely integrated", while the PLA is still trying to push their new "Military and civilian integration" (军民融合) concept by copying how US did it. Are they that fast at embracing and enhancing?
      - nabla9 6y ago
        PLA has had Maritime Militia since 70's.
supernova87a 6y ago
Depending on where you were it might be the Japanese fishing fleet as well. At night, the footprint of the Japanese fishing fleet in lights can expand the apparent size of the Japanese islands by what seems like double the area.

by vbtemp 6y ago

stronglikedan 6y ago

So much light that it can be seen from space! [0] [0] https://qz.com/1278321/an-image-from-space-reveals-the-fishing-industrys-massive-scale/ https://qz.com/1278321/an-image-from-space-reveals-the-fishi...

mytailorisrich 6y ago

I'm not expert on air routes but Bangkok to Tokyo sounds like it would go over the North part of the South China Sea, near Hainan then along the coast of China. So not really where the flashpoints are. Not sure what would be frightening and shocking apart perhaps from the potential overfishing, which is unfortunately widespread worldwide. I'm sure that Vietnam, especially, and other neighbouring countries also have extensive fishing fleets in the South China Sea at large.

vbtemp 6y ago
It goes a little farther south and then hangs a right turn to fly toward BKK from due East. So this was more from the south-central portion of the region. The "shocking" part was just the astounding number of vessels, stretching beyond the horizon.

yorwba 6y ago

> Presumably all Chinese That seems unlikely considering that Vietnam's entire coastline forms the western border of the South China Sea, so that's where they're most likely to fish. The Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Indonesia also border the sea and occasionally stop fishing boats in what they consider their territorial waters. China probably has the largest fleet, but that doesn't mean the other countries are just watching them fish without doing anything.

jvanderbot 6y ago
OP/TFA implied that it was indeed Chinese, by encroaching on territorial waters and crowding out native fleets. At least that was my reading of the article and the above comment.
- yorwba 6y ago
  Yes, and I was arguing against that idea. The other countries didn't suddenly stop fishing in the area. And FWIW all of them are about equally "native" to the region, as in, people from all the surrounding coasts have been fishing there for centuries. Just the scale is new.

nabla9 6y ago

Many of those ships have crews that are part of the People’s Armed Forces Maritime Militia (PAFMM). The militia are organized and commanded directly by the PLA's local military commands. They don't normally carry weapons, but they have military communications equipment and readiness to support PLA Navy. https://www.andrewerickson.com/2016/03/chinas-maritime-militia-our-most-extensive-detailed-analysis-yet/ https://www.andrewerickson.com/2016/03/chinas-maritime-milit...

derefr 6y ago
How different is that from the US Coast Guard's (and especially regular merchant ships whose crews are part of the Coast Guard Reserve's) wartime function? I would suppose that all organized merchant-marine escort fleets are trained to cooperate/coordinate with their country's Navy; if not just to "get the heck out of the way, this area is about to be under attack." Also, AFAIK, it's a de-facto "law of the sea" that pretty much all ships with transponders—no matter the flag they fly—will willingly act as relays for other ships that cannot communicate, in order to facilitate search-and-rescue. Same with planes. It's a whole part of their signalling codes.
- nabla9 6y ago
  There are so many of them and they are more closely integrated to PLA. The encrypted military communication equipment they carry is designed works even during wartime operations under jamming.
  - rfoo 6y ago
    It's quite interesting to see those fleet being analyzed and claimed to be "more closely integrated", while the PLA is still trying to push their new "Military and civilian integration" (军民融合) concept by copying how US did it. Are they that fast at embracing and enhancing?
    - nabla9 6y ago
      PLA has had Maritime Militia since 70's.

supernova87a 6y ago

Depending on where you were it might be the Japanese fishing fleet as well. At night, the footprint of the Japanese fishing fleet in lights can expand the apparent size of the Japanese islands by what seems like double the area.