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I think the word "open" is now just too overloaded. What does open mean ? Does it mean that I can read the source? Does it mean I can read the source in a timel

by dman 16y ago

I think the word "open" is now just too overloaded. What does open mean ? Does it mean that I can read the source? Does it mean I can read the source in a timely fashion as soon as the product is available? Does it mean that I have the right to modify and execute the source? Does it mean that there are reasonably good chances that if I make a valid and valued change to the code it will be integrated upstream? While Gruber has a biased take on things, there is some truth to the fact that there are definitions of open by which Android is not an open system.

rbarooah 16y ago
I find it hard to come up with a definition by which Android is an open system. It seems to pretty much boil down to: Some of the time, some people can see some of the source, but some of those people may be restricted in what they can do by licenses'. If that's what passes as 'open' we need a new word.
- recoiledsnake 16y ago
  By the same metric, we need new definitions for what Apple is doing. For example, the forced 30% cut of all subscription content. That isn't 'closed' anymore, like we say 'Windows is closed'. Maybe 'Locked down' is more like it?
  - Cadsby 16y ago
    This isn't about Apple, as has been pointed out repeatedly. There are a lot of criticisms about iOS which are valid, however I don't recall them ever claiming their platform was even remotely open. If "Open" is now a convoluted word, we have Google to thank for that, because that's what happens when you launch an entire marketing campaign around a single term.
    - recoiledsnake 16y ago
      >..you launch an entire marketing campaign around a single term. They did? Maybe I was the only one who missed it. Links? Android is definitely way more "Open" than iOS, by almost any metric, even with the latest changes. Care to dispute that? And it's not helping that Apple is going to even more closed via forced cut of subscriptions.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
      - rbarooah 16y ago
        Claiming it's 'more' open just begs a Godwin conclusion.
        recoiledsnake 16y ago
        Why? Aren't there discernible differences in the openness of Android and iOS regarding the hardware, app stores and subscriptions?
        rbarooah 16y ago
        I'm guessing you don't understand the Godwin reference.
      - m0nastic 16y ago
        You can watch this video for starters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89xc_1Vv69k http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89xc_1Vv69k (Google IO 2010 Android Keynote) One selected quote: 1.) "So if you believe in openness, if you believe in choice, if you believe in innovation from everyone†, then welcome to Android." † Everyone, depending on where the innovation is, being Google employees, and select partners who are given access to the Android source before public release.
        recoiledsnake 16y ago
        That seems pretty true compared to the alternate platform which results in things like this http://blog.robrhyne.com/post/659211315/almost-on-the-app-store http://blog.robrhyne.com/post/659211315/almost-on-the-app-st... and this http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9207641/Apple_rejects_Sony_e_reader_app_Is_Kindle_next_ http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9207641/Apple_rejects... And it seems like nothing has changed with the latest changes to Android. Care to elaborate? Edit: And how is a IO keynote 'an entire marketing campaign' ?
raganwald 16y ago
I think the word "open" is now just too overloaded. I agree with this. Some time ago, the word "free" became overloaded, so today we talk about "Freedom zero," "Free as in beer," "Free as in speech," and so on. I think there's a general understanding that the word "free" is not specific enough. It seems we're at that place with "open" as well. Good call.
bergie 16y ago
It is sad that many use it in open as in license terms, while true openness of a platform is a lot more: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/open_source-free_software-what_we_need_is_open_projects/ http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/open_source-free_software-what_we_...
mturmon 16y ago
This is so true. "Open" has become a software-politics analog of "freedom" in ordinary politics. An undefinable, but very good, thing. (Freedom from taxes? Freedom from poverty?) One point of clarity, however, regarding these recent statements is that Andy Rubin helpfully gave his definition of the term: http://twitter.com/Arubin/status/27808662429 http://twitter.com/Arubin/status/27808662429 This definition allows much less wiggle room! It's wiggle room that Google wants back now. ;-)

by dman 16y ago

rbarooah 16y ago

I find it hard to come up with a definition by which Android is an open system. It seems to pretty much boil down to: Some of the time, some people can see some of the source, but some of those people may be restricted in what they can do by licenses'. If that's what passes as 'open' we need a new word.

recoiledsnake 16y ago
By the same metric, we need new definitions for what Apple is doing. For example, the forced 30% cut of all subscription content. That isn't 'closed' anymore, like we say 'Windows is closed'. Maybe 'Locked down' is more like it?
- Cadsby 16y ago
  This isn't about Apple, as has been pointed out repeatedly. There are a lot of criticisms about iOS which are valid, however I don't recall them ever claiming their platform was even remotely open. If "Open" is now a convoluted word, we have Google to thank for that, because that's what happens when you launch an entire marketing campaign around a single term.
  - recoiledsnake 16y ago
    >..you launch an entire marketing campaign around a single term. They did? Maybe I was the only one who missed it. Links? Android is definitely way more "Open" than iOS, by almost any metric, even with the latest changes. Care to dispute that? And it's not helping that Apple is going to even more closed via forced cut of subscriptions.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - rbarooah 16y ago
      Claiming it's 'more' open just begs a Godwin conclusion.
      - recoiledsnake 16y ago
        Why? Aren't there discernible differences in the openness of Android and iOS regarding the hardware, app stores and subscriptions?
        rbarooah 16y ago
        I'm guessing you don't understand the Godwin reference.
    - m0nastic 16y ago
      You can watch this video for starters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89xc_1Vv69k http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89xc_1Vv69k (Google IO 2010 Android Keynote) One selected quote: 1.) "So if you believe in openness, if you believe in choice, if you believe in innovation from everyone†, then welcome to Android." † Everyone, depending on where the innovation is, being Google employees, and select partners who are given access to the Android source before public release.
      - recoiledsnake 16y ago
        That seems pretty true compared to the alternate platform which results in things like this http://blog.robrhyne.com/post/659211315/almost-on-the-app-store http://blog.robrhyne.com/post/659211315/almost-on-the-app-st... and this http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9207641/Apple_rejects_Sony_e_reader_app_Is_Kindle_next_ http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9207641/Apple_rejects... And it seems like nothing has changed with the latest changes to Android. Care to elaborate? Edit: And how is a IO keynote 'an entire marketing campaign' ?

raganwald 16y ago

I think the word "open" is now just too overloaded. I agree with this. Some time ago, the word "free" became overloaded, so today we talk about "Freedom zero," "Free as in beer," "Free as in speech," and so on. I think there's a general understanding that the word "free" is not specific enough. It seems we're at that place with "open" as well. Good call.

bergie 16y ago

It is sad that many use it in open as in license terms, while true openness of a platform is a lot more: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/open_source-free_software-what_we_need_is_open_projects/ http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/open_source-free_software-what_we_...

mturmon 16y ago

This is so true. "Open" has become a software-politics analog of "freedom" in ordinary politics. An undefinable, but very good, thing. (Freedom from taxes? Freedom from poverty?) One point of clarity, however, regarding these recent statements is that Andy Rubin helpfully gave his definition of the term: http://twitter.com/Arubin/status/27808662429 http://twitter.com/Arubin/status/27808662429 This definition allows much less wiggle room! It's wiggle room that Google wants back now. ;-)