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Is it possible yet to virtualize an OSX install without breaking the EULA?

by Alupis 6y ago

wmf 6y ago
Yes, the EULA allows running macOS on macOS. (I realize this isn't what you want.)
- stephenr 6y ago
  Technically I believe you're still "covered" if you were to e.g. run a macOS VM, under some non-macos "host", on Mac hardware. I'd imagine the most common scenario for that would be macOS guests running on ESXi on Mac hardware, but my understanding is that e.g. a macOS guest under say Vbox or KVM with a linux host OS should also be "ok" in terms of the EULA.
  - Alupis 6y ago
    Someone quoted the actual EULA below. I won't repost it since I don't want to steal their thunder, but it's very clear you can virtualize macOS up to two instances on your Mac computer. Extremely limiting, and a real bummer. Here in 2020, Apple invests a lot of resources to allow other OS's to be virtualized on macOS, but you still can't virtualize macOS on other OS's
    - stephenr 6y ago
      > but you still can't virtualize macOS on other OS's The EULA does not say "you must virtualise macOS as a guest VM on a macOS host". It says you must do it on Mac hardware. As I said above - ESXi on Mac with macOS guests is very much a thing that happens, at reasonable scale.
      - Alupis 6y ago
        I doubt it. VMware would need to develop special drivers just for macOS, since there seems to be practically zero cooperation from Apple here. Even with some compatibility shim or custom drivers, just like Hackintoshes, these VM's would be subject to breaking on every OS update. And the EULA clearly states it only allows up to 2 instances of macOS to be virtualized on a Mac computer already running Apple software, ie macOS.[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23924200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23924200
        stephenr 6y ago
        You can doubt it all you want. Some people doubt the earth is a globe too. https://www.macstadium.com/vmware https://www.macstadium.com/vmware
        Alupis 6y ago
        I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from. Have you read the linked EULA? Of course you can run ESXi on Mac _hardware_. You can run nearly any OS or software on the Mac _hardware_. It's, until recently, pretty standard Intel x86 hardware. You cannot, however, run macOS on Dell hardware as an ESXi guest. It very clearly violates Apple's EULA for macOS, even if you could trick it into doing so. You can look around the internet for how to install a macOS guest on non Apple hardware running ESXi. It's not easy, and requires patching ESXi, and more. Plus, the hosting company you linked to is clearly running things on Mac hardware. They even say it. Doing otherwise would clearly violate Apple's EULA, which is what all this was originally about.
        stephenr 6y ago
        > Have you read the linked EULA? Have you read what I wrote? Or even what you asked originally? You asked if macOS can be virtualised. The answer is yes, it can, on Mac hardware. If you want to know if it can be virtualised on non-mac hardware, perhaps that's what you should have asked.
        Alupis 6y ago
        > You asked if macOS can be virtualised. The answer is yes, it can, on Mac hardware. I guess that's fair enough. It used to be you couldn't virtualize OSX/macOS on anything, period. So this is a step in the right direction. I suppose the historical lack of virtualization provisions in the license agreement led to the rise of insane concoctions like Imgix[1] - literally custom fabricating racks to hold a bunch of Mac Pros in a data center - absolutely insane, but necessary if you wanted a macOS/OSX stack. I guess it's implied that virtualization would be hardware agnostic... since that's a primary reason to virtualize an OS. Artificial limitations of only two (2) instances on only Apple hardware is absurd, and barely useful at all. From kbutler's post[1]: > "(iii) to install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or instances of the Apple Software within virtual operating system environments on each Mac Computer you own or control that is already running the Apple Software, for purposes of: (a) software development; (b) testing during software development; (c) using macOS Server; or (d) personal, non-commercial use." This seems to imply you can only virtualize macOS on Apple hardware that is already running macOS. Since ESXi is a Type-1 Hypervisor and includes it's own kernel, etc, it seems dubious to wipe the OS, and install ESXi on Apple hardware. Perhaps you'll never be caught doing this... but it seems like it would still violate the EULA. [1] https://photos.imgix.com/racking-mac-pros https://photos.imgix.com/racking-mac-pros [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23924200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23924200
kbutler 6y ago
"(iii) to install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or instances of the Apple Software within virtual operating system environments on each Mac Computer you own or control that is already running the Apple Software, for purposes of: (a) software development; (b) testing during software development; (c) using macOS Server; or (d) personal, non-commercial use." https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macOSCatalina.pdf https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macOSCatalina.pdf
- Alupis 6y ago
  That's an improvement, but still severely limiting. Real shame.
  - athms 6y ago
    It has been this way since MacOS 10.7 (Lion) released in 2011. I recommend keeping up with current events.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      I lost interest in Apple over a decade ago. Too many restrictions, and overpriced hardware. Plus, they've never once made a serious play in the server space (nobody uses OSX Server unless they really have to).
josteink 6y ago
> Is it possible yet to virtualize an OSX install without breaking the EULA? Has a single court of law yet made a ruling to set a precedent saying they are legally binding? If no, I’ll just keep treating EULAs like what they are: a corporate wish list of unlawful restrictions they want to impose on their customers. Why should anyone care about that?
- Alupis 6y ago
  Why would it not be binding? It's a legal contract containing terms of use and prohibited activities. You give consent too... Many of the use cases for virtualizing OSX are for business purposes. Not a great idea to build a business off pirated software and trampled software licenses.
  - josteink 6y ago
    > Why would it not be binding? By requesting and reading this reply you hereby grant me 50% of your future income the next 5 years. By your logic, this statement should legally binding too, just because someone somewhere wrote it and put it on your screen. Obviously it’s not though, so why should a EULA be different? It’s literally the same thing.
    - nojito 6y ago
      https://jolt.law.harvard.edu/digest/apple-inc-v-psystar-corp https://jolt.law.harvard.edu/digest/apple-inc-v-psystar-corp
- dwheeler 6y ago
  Yes, shrinkwrap EULAs have been upheld in the US as a contract. At the very least: ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg, 86 F.3d 1447 (7th Cir. 1996).

Is it possible yet to virtualize an OSX install without breaking the EULA?

by Alupis 6y ago

Is it possible yet to virtualize an OSX install without breaking the EULA?

wmf 6y ago

Yes, the EULA allows running macOS on macOS. (I realize this isn't what you want.)

stephenr 6y ago
Technically I believe you're still "covered" if you were to e.g. run a macOS VM, under some non-macos "host", on Mac hardware. I'd imagine the most common scenario for that would be macOS guests running on ESXi on Mac hardware, but my understanding is that e.g. a macOS guest under say Vbox or KVM with a linux host OS should also be "ok" in terms of the EULA.
- Alupis 6y ago
  Someone quoted the actual EULA below. I won't repost it since I don't want to steal their thunder, but it's very clear you can virtualize macOS up to two instances on your Mac computer. Extremely limiting, and a real bummer. Here in 2020, Apple invests a lot of resources to allow other OS's to be virtualized on macOS, but you still can't virtualize macOS on other OS's
  - stephenr 6y ago
    > but you still can't virtualize macOS on other OS's The EULA does not say "you must virtualise macOS as a guest VM on a macOS host". It says you must do it on Mac hardware. As I said above - ESXi on Mac with macOS guests is very much a thing that happens, at reasonable scale.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      I doubt it. VMware would need to develop special drivers just for macOS, since there seems to be practically zero cooperation from Apple here. Even with some compatibility shim or custom drivers, just like Hackintoshes, these VM's would be subject to breaking on every OS update. And the EULA clearly states it only allows up to 2 instances of macOS to be virtualized on a Mac computer already running Apple software, ie macOS.[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23924200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23924200
      - stephenr 6y ago
        You can doubt it all you want. Some people doubt the earth is a globe too. https://www.macstadium.com/vmware https://www.macstadium.com/vmware
        Alupis 6y ago
        I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from. Have you read the linked EULA? Of course you can run ESXi on Mac _hardware_. You can run nearly any OS or software on the Mac _hardware_. It's, until recently, pretty standard Intel x86 hardware. You cannot, however, run macOS on Dell hardware as an ESXi guest. It very clearly violates Apple's EULA for macOS, even if you could trick it into doing so. You can look around the internet for how to install a macOS guest on non Apple hardware running ESXi. It's not easy, and requires patching ESXi, and more. Plus, the hosting company you linked to is clearly running things on Mac hardware. They even say it. Doing otherwise would clearly violate Apple's EULA, which is what all this was originally about.
        stephenr 6y ago
        > Have you read the linked EULA? Have you read what I wrote? Or even what you asked originally? You asked if macOS can be virtualised. The answer is yes, it can, on Mac hardware. If you want to know if it can be virtualised on non-mac hardware, perhaps that's what you should have asked.
        Alupis 6y ago
        > You asked if macOS can be virtualised. The answer is yes, it can, on Mac hardware. I guess that's fair enough. It used to be you couldn't virtualize OSX/macOS on anything, period. So this is a step in the right direction. I suppose the historical lack of virtualization provisions in the license agreement led to the rise of insane concoctions like Imgix[1] - literally custom fabricating racks to hold a bunch of Mac Pros in a data center - absolutely insane, but necessary if you wanted a macOS/OSX stack. I guess it's implied that virtualization would be hardware agnostic... since that's a primary reason to virtualize an OS. Artificial limitations of only two (2) instances on only Apple hardware is absurd, and barely useful at all. From kbutler's post[1]: > "(iii) to install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or instances of the Apple Software within virtual operating system environments on each Mac Computer you own or control that is already running the Apple Software, for purposes of: (a) software development; (b) testing during software development; (c) using macOS Server; or (d) personal, non-commercial use." This seems to imply you can only virtualize macOS on Apple hardware that is already running macOS. Since ESXi is a Type-1 Hypervisor and includes it's own kernel, etc, it seems dubious to wipe the OS, and install ESXi on Apple hardware. Perhaps you'll never be caught doing this... but it seems like it would still violate the EULA. [1] https://photos.imgix.com/racking-mac-pros https://photos.imgix.com/racking-mac-pros [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23924200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23924200

kbutler 6y ago

"(iii) to install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or instances of the Apple Software within virtual operating system environments on each Mac Computer you own or control that is already running the Apple Software, for purposes of: (a) software development; (b) testing during software development; (c) using macOS Server; or (d) personal, non-commercial use." https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macOSCatalina.pdf https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macOSCatalina.pdf

Alupis 6y ago
That's an improvement, but still severely limiting. Real shame.
- athms 6y ago
  It has been this way since MacOS 10.7 (Lion) released in 2011. I recommend keeping up with current events.
  - Alupis 6y ago
    I lost interest in Apple over a decade ago. Too many restrictions, and overpriced hardware. Plus, they've never once made a serious play in the server space (nobody uses OSX Server unless they really have to).

josteink 6y ago

> Is it possible yet to virtualize an OSX install without breaking the EULA? Has a single court of law yet made a ruling to set a precedent saying they are legally binding? If no, I’ll just keep treating EULAs like what they are: a corporate wish list of unlawful restrictions they want to impose on their customers. Why should anyone care about that?

Alupis 6y ago
Why would it not be binding? It's a legal contract containing terms of use and prohibited activities. You give consent too... Many of the use cases for virtualizing OSX are for business purposes. Not a great idea to build a business off pirated software and trampled software licenses.
- josteink 6y ago
  > Why would it not be binding? By requesting and reading this reply you hereby grant me 50% of your future income the next 5 years. By your logic, this statement should legally binding too, just because someone somewhere wrote it and put it on your screen. Obviously it’s not though, so why should a EULA be different? It’s literally the same thing.
  - nojito 6y ago
    https://jolt.law.harvard.edu/digest/apple-inc-v-psystar-corp https://jolt.law.harvard.edu/digest/apple-inc-v-psystar-corp
dwheeler 6y ago
Yes, shrinkwrap EULAs have been upheld in the US as a contract. At the very least: ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg, 86 F.3d 1447 (7th Cir. 1996).