5 ms·

Why not just baptize every human then?

by SomewhatLikely 6y ago

bobbylarrybobby 6y ago
Ha! Get a load of this guy, caring about people outside his family /s
- perl4ever 6y ago
  That's the whole point; they intend to baptize everyone living or dead, and theoretically even the dead get to decide whether to accept. Genealogy is a side effect of this, I have the vague impression that they need to know who you are to baptize you; however, everyone on the planet is a member of the same "family".
  - gliese1337 6y ago
    That is a correct impression. A name, date, and associated place, with all three assumed to uniquely identify an individual in most cases, are required to perform the ordinance. Most typically, that's a birth name and a date and place of birth, date and place of death, or date and place of marriage. If it turns out that there were two people with the same name born in the same town on the same day... well, the angels will help figure that out later.
mkhpalm 6y ago
I think they actually try to in what they call baptism for the dead.
edbaskerville 6y ago
There has been a bit of that. Although it is officially against church policy, some Mormons have baptized some deceased Jews, including Anne Frank: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/03/us/jews-take-issue-with-posthumous-mormon-baptisms-beliefs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/03/us/jews-take-issue-with-p...
- perl4ever 6y ago
  I feel like taking offense at this is not worth it. If they sincerely believe they are saving souls, and you don't, then it shouldn't mean anything to you. Baptizing the dead seems silly and quaint, but Christians used to ask, how is it fair to send the unbaptized to hell that never had a chance to be saved? Mormons should get some credit for acknowledging the unfairness and coming up with a "solution". I think it's a sad commentary on human nature that the Christian sects that don't believe anyone goes to hell at all are even more fringe and taken less seriously than Mormons.
  - Thorrez 6y ago
    >I think it's a sad commentary on human nature that the Christian sects that don't believe anyone goes to hell at all are even more fringe and taken less seriously than Mormons. One reason they might not be taken seriously is that in the Bible Jesus directly talks about people being in Hell.
    - kmonsen 6y ago
      I don't think that is true, see for example: https://www.npr.org/2020/03/31/824479587/heaven-and-hell-are-not-what-jesus-preached-religion-scholar-says https://www.npr.org/2020/03/31/824479587/heaven-and-hell-are...
      - Thorrez 6y ago
        >Bart Ehrman says the ideas of eternal rewards and punishments aren't found in the Old Testament or in the teachings of Jesus. What about Matthew 25:46? > Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. That article seems to assert that Jesus taught the soul cannot live apart from the body. There are various other quotes from Jesus contradicting that. John 14:1-3: > Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. John 18:36: > Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place." Luke 23:43: > Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
Trasmatta 6y ago
That's what they're trying to do. In Mormon theology everyone who dies without a chance to be baptized must be given a proxy baptism by someone living, so they have a chance to accept the gospel in the afterlife. The goal is that this will eventually happen for everyone who ever lived. (Source: former Mormon.)
- Gustomaximus 6y ago
  Send someone up to space each year and sprinkle water on earth, do a bulk lot.
  - hangonhn 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Y%C3%BC-hsiang#Conversion_to_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Y%C3%BC-hsiang#Conversion... There was a Chinese general who supposedly did something like that using a firehose.
  - Trasmatta 6y ago
    Unfortunately won't work unless you flood the world, because Mormons only do baptism by full immersion.
    - codeisawesome 6y ago
      They only need to wait a century or two then... and try to release more greenhouse gases if possible.
  - gliese1337 6y ago
    Even discounting the procedural difficulties, which would make such a baptism invalid to the church, it doesn't count without knowledge and consent.
    - jobigoud 6y ago
      How do the dead ancestors give consent in the current scheme?

Why not just baptize every human then?

bobbylarrybobby 6y ago

Ha! Get a load of this guy, caring about people outside his family /s

perl4ever 6y ago
That's the whole point; they intend to baptize everyone living or dead, and theoretically even the dead get to decide whether to accept. Genealogy is a side effect of this, I have the vague impression that they need to know who you are to baptize you; however, everyone on the planet is a member of the same "family".
- gliese1337 6y ago
  That is a correct impression. A name, date, and associated place, with all three assumed to uniquely identify an individual in most cases, are required to perform the ordinance. Most typically, that's a birth name and a date and place of birth, date and place of death, or date and place of marriage. If it turns out that there were two people with the same name born in the same town on the same day... well, the angels will help figure that out later.

mkhpalm 6y ago

I think they actually try to in what they call baptism for the dead.

edbaskerville 6y ago

There has been a bit of that. Although it is officially against church policy, some Mormons have baptized some deceased Jews, including Anne Frank: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/03/us/jews-take-issue-with-posthumous-mormon-baptisms-beliefs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/03/us/jews-take-issue-with-p...

perl4ever 6y ago
I feel like taking offense at this is not worth it. If they sincerely believe they are saving souls, and you don't, then it shouldn't mean anything to you. Baptizing the dead seems silly and quaint, but Christians used to ask, how is it fair to send the unbaptized to hell that never had a chance to be saved? Mormons should get some credit for acknowledging the unfairness and coming up with a "solution". I think it's a sad commentary on human nature that the Christian sects that don't believe anyone goes to hell at all are even more fringe and taken less seriously than Mormons.
- Thorrez 6y ago
  >I think it's a sad commentary on human nature that the Christian sects that don't believe anyone goes to hell at all are even more fringe and taken less seriously than Mormons. One reason they might not be taken seriously is that in the Bible Jesus directly talks about people being in Hell.
  - kmonsen 6y ago
    I don't think that is true, see for example: https://www.npr.org/2020/03/31/824479587/heaven-and-hell-are-not-what-jesus-preached-religion-scholar-says https://www.npr.org/2020/03/31/824479587/heaven-and-hell-are...
    - Thorrez 6y ago
      >Bart Ehrman says the ideas of eternal rewards and punishments aren't found in the Old Testament or in the teachings of Jesus. What about Matthew 25:46? > Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. That article seems to assert that Jesus taught the soul cannot live apart from the body. There are various other quotes from Jesus contradicting that. John 14:1-3: > Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. John 18:36: > Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place." Luke 23:43: > Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Trasmatta 6y ago

That's what they're trying to do. In Mormon theology everyone who dies without a chance to be baptized must be given a proxy baptism by someone living, so they have a chance to accept the gospel in the afterlife. The goal is that this will eventually happen for everyone who ever lived. (Source: former Mormon.)

Gustomaximus 6y ago
Send someone up to space each year and sprinkle water on earth, do a bulk lot.
- hangonhn 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Y%C3%BC-hsiang#Conversion_to_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Y%C3%BC-hsiang#Conversion... There was a Chinese general who supposedly did something like that using a firehose.
- Trasmatta 6y ago
  Unfortunately won't work unless you flood the world, because Mormons only do baptism by full immersion.
  - codeisawesome 6y ago
    They only need to wait a century or two then... and try to release more greenhouse gases if possible.
- gliese1337 6y ago
  Even discounting the procedural difficulties, which would make such a baptism invalid to the church, it doesn't count without knowledge and consent.
  - jobigoud 6y ago
    How do the dead ancestors give consent in the current scheme?