3 ms·

Can understand the anti-MSFT crowd here but after being smashed so many times for anti-competitiveness [rightly, I might add] - but equally I can appreciate the

by timmyd 16y ago

Can understand the anti-MSFT crowd here but after being smashed so many times for anti-competitiveness [rightly, I might add] - but equally I can appreciate the "mix" of feelings MSFT have. Bing is not even a blimp on Googles radar in Europe and in turn this adversely affects all other MSFT offerings [email, search, advertising, business apps etc etc]. MSFT were slammed for locking in IE as part of the OS and basically every Google App I use now shoves the "Use Google Chrome instead" in my face at some point. Google is now practically the 1eading search engine, leading email, leading advertising, leading online apps programs, leading new browser --> and it just keeps adding up. They all work synergistically together and in turn they all reduce competition for other players to some degree. Screaming hypocrisy from MSFT ? You bet. Justified ? Perhaps - they'd be the best to know because they've been sued more times than anyone. I love Google, use all their products because they are the best - but as 100's of articles on HN have illustrated --> Bing is JUST as good as Google, arguably the search results are not that much different --> everyone uses Google because it's where EVERYTHING you use is located and Bing doesn't offer anything "better" than Google - so why change ? This "lax" attitude is exactly what creates monopolies and exactly what stifles competition. If Google have 99% of the search market - nothing is "pushing them" to innovate. Maybe I would use Bing more if Hotmail didn't suck ? But the question is not always pointed towards what "technology buffs" are looking to use because the organic nature of being a techy is that you'll understand the differences. Question is then - what do Mums, Dads and non-techies use and is this fueling anti-competitive behavior ? How are data practices maintained and what is Google doing with the enormous amount of data it gathers ? Relevant questions. Important ones and while I find it unbelievably ironic that MSFT is doing this - I'm glad someone is holding Google "accountable" because left unchecked - it's MSFT all over again.

nkassis 16y ago
" everyone uses Google because it's where EVERYTHING you use is located and Bing doesn't offer anything "better" than Google - so why change ?" That the problem with Bing, what's the point of it? Plus it's by a company who has a tarnished reputation. By the logic of your argument we should complain because MSN is entrenched in my country (Canada) thus they have a monopoly because no one feels like switching away. Except MSN messenger does what people want, why would they switch to the same thing elsewhere?
- timmyd 16y ago
  No, by the logic of my argument we should seek to ensure that anti-competitive behavior does not simply trump competitors who offer services of a nature which is just as good if not better "but for" the entrenchment that Google has in consumer web. The problem is that Google have so effectively cross-marketed their products through their search engine that you have no reason to switch. They have all your data, everything about you and you actively now "refuse" to use alternative services EVEN IF better services exist. Bing returns results which are just as good - sometimes better - but no one actively uses it ? "Google is better" --> that's the 10 years entrenchment Google has over everyone. Your suggestion - "That the problem with Bing, what's the point of it?" - is exactly why anti-trust cases begin in the first place. "Why bother with competition?" --> I think your statement has just answered itself.
  - infinite8s 16y ago
    No No No. Anti competitive behaviour doesn't arise when consumers all choose to use a particular product because they can't be bothered to try others out. That means the product they chose is likely sufficient for their needs. The dominant use of Google Search doesn't preclude anyone from using Bing if they choose, and for this reason Google's dominance in search isn't anticompetitive. It's only when they use this dominance to enter and dominate another market (or, as in this case, preventing WinMobile's youtube app from accessing the same video metadata available to Android and iOS youtube apps).
    - rbarooah 16y ago
      The anti-competitive behavior they're accused of is using their dominance in online-video to secure their dominance in search. Bing can never compete effectively with Google if Google blocks them from properly indexing video. By your Android analogy, the allegation is that YouTube is preventing you from searching properly using anything but Google Search.
      - rbanffy 16y ago
        Define "search properly". I am sure the MSDN content on Microsoft's site that's indexed by Google is indexed by crawling the pages. I am sure if Bing folks ask the MSDN folks for access to that data and won't be turned down. Bing can crawl the entirety of YouTube all they want, grab each and every snippet of information I can see on my screen. Why would they need anything more?

by timmyd 16y ago

nkassis 16y ago

" everyone uses Google because it's where EVERYTHING you use is located and Bing doesn't offer anything "better" than Google - so why change ?" That the problem with Bing, what's the point of it? Plus it's by a company who has a tarnished reputation. By the logic of your argument we should complain because MSN is entrenched in my country (Canada) thus they have a monopoly because no one feels like switching away. Except MSN messenger does what people want, why would they switch to the same thing elsewhere?

timmyd 16y ago
No, by the logic of my argument we should seek to ensure that anti-competitive behavior does not simply trump competitors who offer services of a nature which is just as good if not better "but for" the entrenchment that Google has in consumer web. The problem is that Google have so effectively cross-marketed their products through their search engine that you have no reason to switch. They have all your data, everything about you and you actively now "refuse" to use alternative services EVEN IF better services exist. Bing returns results which are just as good - sometimes better - but no one actively uses it ? "Google is better" --> that's the 10 years entrenchment Google has over everyone. Your suggestion - "That the problem with Bing, what's the point of it?" - is exactly why anti-trust cases begin in the first place. "Why bother with competition?" --> I think your statement has just answered itself.
- infinite8s 16y ago
  No No No. Anti competitive behaviour doesn't arise when consumers all choose to use a particular product because they can't be bothered to try others out. That means the product they chose is likely sufficient for their needs. The dominant use of Google Search doesn't preclude anyone from using Bing if they choose, and for this reason Google's dominance in search isn't anticompetitive. It's only when they use this dominance to enter and dominate another market (or, as in this case, preventing WinMobile's youtube app from accessing the same video metadata available to Android and iOS youtube apps).
  - rbarooah 16y ago
    The anti-competitive behavior they're accused of is using their dominance in online-video to secure their dominance in search. Bing can never compete effectively with Google if Google blocks them from properly indexing video. By your Android analogy, the allegation is that YouTube is preventing you from searching properly using anything but Google Search.
    - rbanffy 16y ago
      Define "search properly". I am sure the MSDN content on Microsoft's site that's indexed by Google is indexed by crawling the pages. I am sure if Bing folks ask the MSDN folks for access to that data and won't be turned down. Bing can crawl the entirety of YouTube all they want, grab each and every snippet of information I can see on my screen. Why would they need anything more?