6 ms·

If anyone could buy this device, then tons of scammers would buy them, install malware, and sell them to people as normal phones. They could then control bankin

If anyone could buy this device, then tons of scammers would buy them, install malware, and sell them to people as normal phones. They could then control banking apps and whatever else they wanted.

except 6y ago
I doubt they would cost the same as regular iPhones.
- ladberg 6y ago
  Does it matter what they cost if scammers could net tens/hundreds of thousands for a single one? (Assuming they pick targets right)
  - pvg 6y ago
    A scam that requires an individually targeted bespoke device that nets tens or hundreds of thousands (how does that even work? how would the proceeds be exfiltrated untraceably?) is just a really expensive way to have a very short career as a scammer.
  - strbean 6y ago
    People with tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars are buying iPhones from random third parties?
    - sneak 6y ago
      It's easier than that. You simply modify the special phone to broadcast the unlock PIN being entered in realtime. You set the background to the same wallpaper as the target's phone. You swap it physically for the target's phone on the table, netting you the target device. Moments later, when they pick up a phone that looks just like their own and enters a PIN several times, you now have both their phone (from when you swapped it) and the PIN to unlock it (from the broadcast), allowing you full use of the device, offline, at your leisure. The target is now confused why their phone isn't unlocking, and may not detect the attack for hours. Apple really should put these audit devices in a big, boxy, couldn't possibly-be-mistaken-for-an-iPhone case.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        > The target is now confused why their phone isn't unlocking, and may not detect the attack for hours. You might as well let the user in while you’re at it, so it’s truly undetectable. > Apple really should put these audit devices in a big, boxy, couldn't possibly-be-mistaken-for-an-iPhone case. Someone in Shenzhen is spinning up their CNC machine as you speak to change that to “you could probably show it to a Genius and they wouldn’t be able to tell at a glance”.
        sneak 6y ago
        You couldn’t, without the data on the stolen target phone. The attack ends with the victim in physical possession of the security research device. I was thinking that the board might need to be larger, too, to make sure it couldn’t easily be transplanted.
        Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        > I was thinking that the board might need to be larger, too, to make sure it couldn’t easily be transplanted. Wouldn't that be costly from an assembly perspective? Economies of scale and all that. Idk, this all seems much too spy-novel-esque for me. You could also install a hidden camera in the victim's room, or modify the phone to capture the video-out signal.
        sneak 6y ago
        Apple is retaining ownership of the devices, as mentioned in the article. They are not for sale. The per-device cost is not hugely relevant. It sounds like a spy novel because spies spy on people who use regular, everyday hardware. A rooted iPhone is an extremely useful tool to that end.
        Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        > It sounds like a spy novel because spies spy on people who use regular, everyday hardware. A rooted iPhone is an extremely useful tool to that end. Do you know of any instances where this happened with devices that can be rooted? (Computers, most Android phones, iPhones vulnerable to Checkm8)
derefr 6y ago
Most such devices (e.g. "development kit" devices for game consoles) look very different than the release product. Usually in such a way that it'd be impractical to use them casually for your personal needs. In other cases, e.g. Android/Chromebooks, there's a common, immutable early chain-of-trust that stays the same between production and development devices (or in this case, between rooted and unrooted devices); which pops up a message during boot warning that a device is currently a development/rooted device, and therefore should not be trusted for production use-cases. It could just-as-well also say "DO NOT BUY THIS PHONE ON THE SECONDARY MARKET; IT HAS BEEN TAMPERED WITH, AND CANNOT BE TRUSTED WITHOUT FACTORY RE-VERIFICATION" — and then users told repeatedly in the company's messaging to look for messages at boot before buying.
- ladberg 6y ago
  I agree, but I think there are non-technical people who would happily buy a cheap iPhone on Craigslist or Facebook and enter in all their iCloud or banking info without rebooting or looking at warnings.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Who is honestly going to buy this highly sought-after iPhone, backdoor it and flip it for a discount on Craigslist in an attempt to what, hack a random person? And you can just prevent that by doing something simple like disabling the App Store…
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      I agree with the first sentence, but disabling the app store would greatly hamper security research, since you can't debug third party apps.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        You'd just download the IPA manually and self-sign it or whatever. Basically just make it unmistakable that this device is not normal and block normal people from being able to use it as normal without realizing it's a development device.

If anyone could buy this device, then tons of scammers would buy them, install malware, and sell them to people as normal phones. They could then control banking apps and whatever else they wanted.

except 6y ago

I doubt they would cost the same as regular iPhones.

ladberg 6y ago
Does it matter what they cost if scammers could net tens/hundreds of thousands for a single one? (Assuming they pick targets right)
- pvg 6y ago
  A scam that requires an individually targeted bespoke device that nets tens or hundreds of thousands (how does that even work? how would the proceeds be exfiltrated untraceably?) is just a really expensive way to have a very short career as a scammer.
- strbean 6y ago
  People with tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars are buying iPhones from random third parties?
  - sneak 6y ago
    It's easier than that. You simply modify the special phone to broadcast the unlock PIN being entered in realtime. You set the background to the same wallpaper as the target's phone. You swap it physically for the target's phone on the table, netting you the target device. Moments later, when they pick up a phone that looks just like their own and enters a PIN several times, you now have both their phone (from when you swapped it) and the PIN to unlock it (from the broadcast), allowing you full use of the device, offline, at your leisure. The target is now confused why their phone isn't unlocking, and may not detect the attack for hours. Apple really should put these audit devices in a big, boxy, couldn't possibly-be-mistaken-for-an-iPhone case.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      > The target is now confused why their phone isn't unlocking, and may not detect the attack for hours. You might as well let the user in while you’re at it, so it’s truly undetectable. > Apple really should put these audit devices in a big, boxy, couldn't possibly-be-mistaken-for-an-iPhone case. Someone in Shenzhen is spinning up their CNC machine as you speak to change that to “you could probably show it to a Genius and they wouldn’t be able to tell at a glance”.
      - sneak 6y ago
        You couldn’t, without the data on the stolen target phone. The attack ends with the victim in physical possession of the security research device. I was thinking that the board might need to be larger, too, to make sure it couldn’t easily be transplanted.
        Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        > I was thinking that the board might need to be larger, too, to make sure it couldn’t easily be transplanted. Wouldn't that be costly from an assembly perspective? Economies of scale and all that. Idk, this all seems much too spy-novel-esque for me. You could also install a hidden camera in the victim's room, or modify the phone to capture the video-out signal.
        sneak 6y ago
        Apple is retaining ownership of the devices, as mentioned in the article. They are not for sale. The per-device cost is not hugely relevant. It sounds like a spy novel because spies spy on people who use regular, everyday hardware. A rooted iPhone is an extremely useful tool to that end.
        Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        > It sounds like a spy novel because spies spy on people who use regular, everyday hardware. A rooted iPhone is an extremely useful tool to that end. Do you know of any instances where this happened with devices that can be rooted? (Computers, most Android phones, iPhones vulnerable to Checkm8)

derefr 6y ago

Most such devices (e.g. "development kit" devices for game consoles) look very different than the release product. Usually in such a way that it'd be impractical to use them casually for your personal needs. In other cases, e.g. Android/Chromebooks, there's a common, immutable early chain-of-trust that stays the same between production and development devices (or in this case, between rooted and unrooted devices); which pops up a message during boot warning that a device is currently a development/rooted device, and therefore should not be trusted for production use-cases. It could just-as-well also say "DO NOT BUY THIS PHONE ON THE SECONDARY MARKET; IT HAS BEEN TAMPERED WITH, AND CANNOT BE TRUSTED WITHOUT FACTORY RE-VERIFICATION" — and then users told repeatedly in the company's messaging to look for messages at boot before buying.

ladberg 6y ago
I agree, but I think there are non-technical people who would happily buy a cheap iPhone on Craigslist or Facebook and enter in all their iCloud or banking info without rebooting or looking at warnings.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Who is honestly going to buy this highly sought-after iPhone, backdoor it and flip it for a discount on Craigslist in an attempt to what, hack a random person? And you can just prevent that by doing something simple like disabling the App Store…
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    I agree with the first sentence, but disabling the app store would greatly hamper security research, since you can't debug third party apps.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      You'd just download the IPA manually and self-sign it or whatever. Basically just make it unmistakable that this device is not normal and block normal people from being able to use it as normal without realizing it's a development device.