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"100% winnable" just means that you have a chance of winning if you do the right things at the right times in relation to what's happening in the game. Nobody w

by ebg13 6y ago

"100% winnable" just means that you have a chance of winning if you do the right things at the right times in relation to what's happening in the game. Nobody wants to play a game that they don't even have a chance of winning even if they play optimally. Replay incentive comes from knowing that if you improve yourself you'll do better, not from flipping coins and hoping for a favorable outcome. > With procedural generation, in order for most games to be challenging and interesting, you have to have games in which the game just stomps you. Only if you have a chance of winning or you're given the chance to detect the situation and run away from the fight until you do have a chance of winning. Otherwise it's just annoying.

brutt 6y ago
> Nobody wants to play a game that they don't even have a chance of winning even if they play optimally. I play such games regularly. I'm just choosing place to die, then I try to stay alive as long as possible. Sometimes I even win, just because of pure luck. Then I win more often.
- Falling3 6y ago
  Your first and last sentences are in direct contradiction.
  - minitech 6y ago
    You mean the first sentence that they quoted in order to disagree with?
    - Falling3 6y ago
      No, I do not mean the quoted section. They claim to play games where there is no chance of winning, then go on to claim they eventually win them often.
      - brutt 6y ago
        Please, read or watch «Ender's_Game» novel. I started to like to play such games after reading it.
theptip 6y ago
> "100% winnable" just means that you have a chance of winning if you do the right things This is not the definition of winnable that the OP (and having listened to him discuss this on-stream, I'm pretty sure Jorbs as well) is using. From the article, > “Can a perfect player win every game of Slay the Spire?” (alternatively, “Is there a strategy that achieves a 100% win rate in Slay the Spire?”) "100% winnable" means that you are _guaranteed_ to win if you do the right things, not that you have a _chance_ to win under optimal play. What you're saying is the same thing as saying "a coin toss is 100% winnable, because you have a chance of winning if you do the right things". I don't think that's a useful way of defining "100% winnable" in the context of this discussion. (There is a loose conversational sense in which your interpretation could be valid; 100%=absolutely, "sure, 100% it's winnable" but these discussions are all using the technical narrow interpretation.)
- ebg13 6y ago
  I think you're misunderstanding and getting caught up on my use of the word chance. "Chance" here means that winning is not foreclosed. If you prefer, let's change it to "opportunity". A winnable playthrough is one that you are given the opportunity to win, one that you will win if your skill is sufficiently high. Not one that anyone will always win, but one that CAN be won by skill. That's the "chance" or "opportunity" part. A non-winnable playthrough is one where you cannot win. A chess game where your opponent starts with all their pieces and you only start with a bare king is non-winnable. You literally cannot win. Nobody wants to play that game unless maybe you invent a different objective. For this context, calling a game "100% winnable" is appropriate if every playthrough is winnable, i.e. for every playthrough winning is not foreclosed. > What you're saying is the same thing as saying "a coin toss is 100% winnable, because you have a chance of winning if you do the right things This is a misunderstanding and completely the opposite of what I'm saying because there's no such thing as "the right things" for coin tosses other than "toss coin" unless you're cheating, because the coin toss is meant to approximate a random selection. Only being able to win by chance is literally the opposite of being 100% winnable. It means you'll lose many tosses without doing anything wrong unless you cheat. That's why tossing a coin is not a fun game.
- dwild 6y ago

by ebg13 6y ago

brutt 6y ago

> Nobody wants to play a game that they don't even have a chance of winning even if they play optimally. I play such games regularly. I'm just choosing place to die, then I try to stay alive as long as possible. Sometimes I even win, just because of pure luck. Then I win more often.

Falling3 6y ago
Your first and last sentences are in direct contradiction.
- minitech 6y ago
  You mean the first sentence that they quoted in order to disagree with?
  - Falling3 6y ago
    No, I do not mean the quoted section. They claim to play games where there is no chance of winning, then go on to claim they eventually win them often.
    - brutt 6y ago
      Please, read or watch «Ender's_Game» novel. I started to like to play such games after reading it.

theptip 6y ago

> "100% winnable" just means that you have a chance of winning if you do the right things This is not the definition of winnable that the OP (and having listened to him discuss this on-stream, I'm pretty sure Jorbs as well) is using. From the article, > “Can a perfect player win every game of Slay the Spire?” (alternatively, “Is there a strategy that achieves a 100% win rate in Slay the Spire?”) "100% winnable" means that you are _guaranteed_ to win if you do the right things, not that you have a _chance_ to win under optimal play. What you're saying is the same thing as saying "a coin toss is 100% winnable, because you have a chance of winning if you do the right things". I don't think that's a useful way of defining "100% winnable" in the context of this discussion. (There is a loose conversational sense in which your interpretation could be valid; 100%=absolutely, "sure, 100% it's winnable" but these discussions are all using the technical narrow interpretation.)

ebg13 6y ago
I think you're misunderstanding and getting caught up on my use of the word chance. "Chance" here means that winning is not foreclosed. If you prefer, let's change it to "opportunity". A winnable playthrough is one that you are given the opportunity to win, one that you will win if your skill is sufficiently high. Not one that anyone will always win, but one that CAN be won by skill. That's the "chance" or "opportunity" part. A non-winnable playthrough is one where you cannot win. A chess game where your opponent starts with all their pieces and you only start with a bare king is non-winnable. You literally cannot win. Nobody wants to play that game unless maybe you invent a different objective. For this context, calling a game "100% winnable" is appropriate if every playthrough is winnable, i.e. for every playthrough winning is not foreclosed. > What you're saying is the same thing as saying "a coin toss is 100% winnable, because you have a chance of winning if you do the right things This is a misunderstanding and completely the opposite of what I'm saying because there's no such thing as "the right things" for coin tosses other than "toss coin" unless you're cheating, because the coin toss is meant to approximate a random selection. Only being able to win by chance is literally the opposite of being 100% winnable. It means you'll lose many tosses without doing anything wrong unless you cheat. That's why tossing a coin is not a fun game.
dwild 6y ago