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I think it's fair to say the sheer quantity has changed since Facebook first came around (FB predates smartphones for one!) I also think part of the objection

by untog 6y ago

I think it's fair to say the sheer quantity has changed since Facebook first came around (FB predates smartphones for one!) I also think part of the objection here is around off-shoring. It's similar to other complaints about off-shored jobs: we're farming out unpleasant work to people that get paid less and have much less support (e.g. mental health).

CM30 6y ago
> I also think part of the objection here is around off-shoring. It's similar to other complaints about off-shored jobs: we're farming out unpleasant work to people that get paid less and have much less support (e.g. mental health). That's an interesting point, and has me wondering something. If a site like Facebook opened up a volunteer moderator scheme where people could sign up to filter out stuff that broke their rules, would it make things better or worse on a moral level? What about a US/Europe based agency that did this thing onshore as a contract deal?
- untog 6y ago
  Facebook already hires moderators inside the US via agencies, and they have their own problems: https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/25/18229714/cognizant-facebook-content-moderator-interviews-trauma-working-conditions-arizona https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/25/18229714/cognizant-facebo... As for the volunteer side, it's a really interesting debate. Others in this thread have pointed out Reddit as an example of this in practise. I think the sheer amount of money that Facebook has means that relying on volunteers to (potentially) inflict emotional damage upon themselves wouldn't be a great look.
- AdmiralGinge 6y ago
  I'd consider volunteering to moderate a particular geographical area, when I was a student Facebook constantly took down the student confessions page I eventually ended up helping to run for the vaguest reasons, while letting actual hate posters run amok. I know I would say that, but we would genuinely get taken down for jokes that wouldn't even make sense out of the tiny university I attended. It was immensely frustrating having to build up the userbase again and again because the moderators of Facebook just weren't/aren't terribly good at their jobs. I'd happily have taken on actual moderation duties rather than had to constantly appeal and get a blank, inhuman "declined" message. I think they tend to take an "if in doubt, remove it" approach which basically allows anyone who doesn't like a niche page for whatever reason to have it taken down through sheer attrition, if you report it enough it'll probably go down eventually even for stupid reasons. I actually ended up writing an app to cut Facebook out of our system altogether (it was kind of similar to Yik Yak with a much better moderation system and better anonymity protection - I really can't be arsed to deal with a GDPR lawsuit...) but we couldn't launch it in part because it took me ages to develop as I've since graduated and work as a full-time developer and because coronavirus meant our launch event got cancelled. I might take it live when students go back this year, but I'm concerned that with nothing much going on it'll fizzle and die because there's nothing interesting to post about. It'll all depend on how the Welsh government lift the coronavirus restrictions.
- xmprt 6y ago
  YouTube tried doing something like this with YouTube Heroes and got tons of backlash for it. Then YouTube tried automating everything away and I'm guessing now people wish they had implemented something like YouTube Heroes instead.
  - cameronbrown 6y ago
    For a different reason. The community was generally upset about Heroes for the potential of large groups to mass flag videos they disagreed with politically, something that was already a growing problem at the time. Disclosure: I work for but don't represent Google. This is my own opinion.
walrus01 6y ago
FB does not predate smartphones, I was using a Treo 180 with a browser and gprs data service in 2002. Email client, ssh, lots of stuff.

by untog 6y ago

CM30 6y ago

> I also think part of the objection here is around off-shoring. It's similar to other complaints about off-shored jobs: we're farming out unpleasant work to people that get paid less and have much less support (e.g. mental health). That's an interesting point, and has me wondering something. If a site like Facebook opened up a volunteer moderator scheme where people could sign up to filter out stuff that broke their rules, would it make things better or worse on a moral level? What about a US/Europe based agency that did this thing onshore as a contract deal?

untog 6y ago
Facebook already hires moderators inside the US via agencies, and they have their own problems: https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/25/18229714/cognizant-facebook-content-moderator-interviews-trauma-working-conditions-arizona https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/25/18229714/cognizant-facebo... As for the volunteer side, it's a really interesting debate. Others in this thread have pointed out Reddit as an example of this in practise. I think the sheer amount of money that Facebook has means that relying on volunteers to (potentially) inflict emotional damage upon themselves wouldn't be a great look.
AdmiralGinge 6y ago
I'd consider volunteering to moderate a particular geographical area, when I was a student Facebook constantly took down the student confessions page I eventually ended up helping to run for the vaguest reasons, while letting actual hate posters run amok. I know I would say that, but we would genuinely get taken down for jokes that wouldn't even make sense out of the tiny university I attended. It was immensely frustrating having to build up the userbase again and again because the moderators of Facebook just weren't/aren't terribly good at their jobs. I'd happily have taken on actual moderation duties rather than had to constantly appeal and get a blank, inhuman "declined" message. I think they tend to take an "if in doubt, remove it" approach which basically allows anyone who doesn't like a niche page for whatever reason to have it taken down through sheer attrition, if you report it enough it'll probably go down eventually even for stupid reasons. I actually ended up writing an app to cut Facebook out of our system altogether (it was kind of similar to Yik Yak with a much better moderation system and better anonymity protection - I really can't be arsed to deal with a GDPR lawsuit...) but we couldn't launch it in part because it took me ages to develop as I've since graduated and work as a full-time developer and because coronavirus meant our launch event got cancelled. I might take it live when students go back this year, but I'm concerned that with nothing much going on it'll fizzle and die because there's nothing interesting to post about. It'll all depend on how the Welsh government lift the coronavirus restrictions.
xmprt 6y ago
YouTube tried doing something like this with YouTube Heroes and got tons of backlash for it. Then YouTube tried automating everything away and I'm guessing now people wish they had implemented something like YouTube Heroes instead.
- cameronbrown 6y ago
  For a different reason. The community was generally upset about Heroes for the potential of large groups to mass flag videos they disagreed with politically, something that was already a growing problem at the time. Disclosure: I work for but don't represent Google. This is my own opinion.

walrus01 6y ago

FB does not predate smartphones, I was using a Treo 180 with a browser and gprs data service in 2002. Email client, ssh, lots of stuff.