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Thinking back on all the games I've lost, this analysis is depressing confirmation that I might just not be that good at this game lol. Super interesting read t

Thinking back on all the games I've lost, this analysis is depressing confirmation that I might just not be that good at this game lol. Super interesting read though!

cableshaft 6y ago
Same. I've played the game for 40 hours and made 40 attempts, and 'won' only 4 times. 2 of them were daily challenges (and don't really count, they include very rule-breaking things), 1 was Standard for Ironclad, and another was Standard for Silent. I haven't even attempted Ascension once yet. It took about 25 tries on Standard before I won my first time, too. I've even watched a few people's playthroughs and going over which cards are better than others and combo well together, and my win rate is still terrible. Just lost again this morning in Act 2 with another Defect run. Meanwhile this guy is saying the best players are winning 99% of the time on Standard, and nearly the same on Ascension level 15? Wow. By the way, for anyone thinking this game isn't really for you, you might want to give it a chance anyway (watch a video at least). I don't usually care for Rogue-likes, and I've been pretty tired of Deckbuilders, but I got into this game hard, pretty much immediately, after putting off trying it for forever and finally deciding to give it a chance. One thing that really makes it awesome for me is that you know basically exactly what the enemies intend to do and how much damage they're going to do to you, so you can puzzle out how to prepare for it, should you kill this person who's going to do 18 damage to you, or reduce their strength, or build up your block to absorb it, or take the hit this round so you can go after something else, etc. If you've ever played Into The Breach, it feels a lot like that, but with RPG battles instead of a Tactical map.
- aaronscott 6y ago
  Similar for me - there was a real sense of accomplishment on my first win in Slay the Spire on the easiest difficulty setting. To think that players have >90% win rates on that setting, much less on Ascension 20 is remarkable. I've learned a lot from Jorbs - a twitch streamer. It's surprising how much statistics and planning can go into any given fight. It's possible to puzzle out how much of the fight will go ahead of time, with knowledge of one's deck and the enemies moves.
- JauntyHatAngle 6y ago
  >going over which cards are better than other I mean, that is perhaps part of your problem. There aren't any cards I've not picked at least once and made good use of on ironclad even at A20. The game really is more about building a deck based upon what comes up and constantly reassessing what is actually working in your current deck. Choosing "good" cards based on their overall strength out of context is essentially a brute force approach to winning.
  - cableshaft 6y ago
    I'm aware it's contextual and there are different strategies for winning, and there's a reason for each card being in the game. But I wasn't aware of how some cards combo together, or some situations/battles where they might be stronger than others, etc. And there are plenty of discussions online for pretty much every card on how strong or weak people think the cards are overall (like is it worth picking it up if it's offered to you late in a run because the payoff might not be worth it, or if you see you're getting a specific boss that act, etc), and most of the cards have been buffed or nerfed multiple times since the game has come out, so clearly the developers have been convinced that some strong may end up stronger than others on average too (and are trying to keep things pretty even as much as possible, I assume).
    - qazwse_ 6y ago
      One thing you may want to try is sticking to a certain class for a while. It'll give you a better feel for how all of their cards work together, and you won't "forget" about certain aspects of the class. I found that I hit a wall around Ascension 8-10 before I started trying this.
      - cableshaft 6y ago
        Yeah, I agree, good advice. When I decided to win my first standard game, I at first floated around from character to character, but then decided to stick with Ironclad until I won. Took like 20 tries, but I finally made it work. Silent took less tries, currently focusing on Defect.
- Latty 6y ago
  I have no idea if this will help you in particular (depends on how you play right now), but something counter-intuitive about deck-building in general that helped a friend of mine up his win-rate in StS a lot is that you need to consider the cost of taking a card. StS lets you not take a card when you are offered one, and often this is the best play, particularly as you go later into the game and have a deck that is stacked with powerful cards. Fundamentally having more cards is bad, because it increases variance in what you can draw. Obviously taking a good card can be worth that cost, but often players fall into the trap of assuming the best card of the options given is worth taking, when really the question should be "does this card beat the average card in my deck, or does it dilute the power of the deck", because you are reducing the chance to draw one of the other cards in your deck. Obviously there are edge cases: sometimes something may reduce the power of your deck right now, but introduces the chance for later synergy, which may be worth the cost—especially early on, but in general it is worth considering not taking the card. The ideal deck is always the minimum number of cards that allow you to pull off your win state, everything else is just stopping you getting there (this is also why cards that allow you to draw cheaply are good, and one of the reasons why removing cards from your deck is powerful).
  - greenshackle2 6y ago
    An important idea is that you're not only drafting to make a generally good deck, you're drafting to defeat the immediate challenges that are coming up. If you're in Act 2 and headed for an elite, you have to think, "can my deck beat book of stabbing? gremlin leader? taskmaster?". If right now your deck sucks against the book, and you're offered a disarm or caltrops, it might be worth picking it even if it's doesn't generally make your deck stronger. Cause otherwise you might get stabbed to death. On the flip side, Demon Form is a very strong card, but it's practically a curse for most of Act 1, because it's too costly and slow. So sometimes you might skip even a strong card if it doesn't help you right now.
    - Latty 6y ago
      Yeah, I definitely don't mean to imply that the comparison to your current cards is a hard and fast rule, but more that it's a good thing to start thinking about if you never skip cards.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  > By the way, for anyone thinking this game isn't really for you, you might want to give it a chance anyway (watch a video at least). I don't usually care for Rogue-likes ...Slay the Spire has nothing in common with roguelikes?
  - lincolnq 6y ago
    It’s procedurally generated, dungeon crawler, with collectible items and permadeath and resource management. I don’t like arguing over definitions, so call it whatever you want, but those are a number of components that feed into the appeal of roguelikes!
- Impossible 6y ago
  You're better than me at the game. I have close to as many hours and attempts and I've only ascended once. Although probably should be at ~3 ascensions and made a couple blatant tactical mistakes fighting bosses with The Silent.
- debaserab2 6y ago
  I was about where you were 40 hours in. Then I bought this game on switch so I can take it everywhere with me and have since dumped about 500 hours into the game. I only recently got all characters to A20. Still working on A20 heart kill and a few other achievements. It's always intrigued me seeing other people pick up the game and master it much more quickly than I did. There's some people that get their A20 heart kill just 100 hours into the game. I really enjoy the feeling of slowly but steadily gaining knowledge and intuition about the game - in the 500 hours of play there's been no shortage ah-ha moments throughout. Truly one of the best $/entertainment value games I've ever purchased.
- hnick 6y ago
  A1 is usually considered easier than A0 because you get more elites but they aren't very punishing yet. You're possibly bringing baggage from other deck builders, mentioning combos and better cards is an example of this. Generally you want to judge cards for what they do for you right now (in the next few fights) to maximise rewards and build long term value. Try not to build into "just in case" combos or synergies or you bleed HP before it shows up. The exception is if you are confident your deck can handle the hallway fights then you might take picks for the boss, and if you can handle that then you can start building for the future. Apart from that, general pickup rules are: Act 1 is front-loaded damage, Act 2 is AOE damage with some damage scaling for the boss, Act 3 is scaling offense and defense (without damaging your other factors too much). You usually want to be plugging holes rather than building on your strengths but there are always exceptions. One example: A single dark orb can be enough to kill Champ on Act 2 as defect. Any more is excessive.
masklinn 6y ago
Likewise. I regularly die in act 1, and after finally achieving ascension 10 with all characters I’ve spent weeks trying to kill the heart at ascension 0 with ironclad with little success. I have fun though, so that’s nice.
- cableshaft 6y ago
  You can kill the heart? I thought that was just kind of like a fun thing you can see at the end of a win where it shows how much damage everyone has done with it, kind of like a communal scoreboard. There's more to it than that? Note: I've only played standard runs and daily challenges so far.
  - hypersoar 6y ago
    In ascension > 0, there are three keys you can collect through the run by choosing them in lieu of other rewards. If you get them all, there's an abbreviated Act IV to play: a hearth, then a shop, then a special elite, then the Heart. The Heart is much, much more difficult than the Act III bosses.
    - cableshaft 6y ago
      Interesting. Is there an incentive to go that route beyond just saying you managed to do it? Not that I need more than that, just curious.
      - masklinn 6y ago
        There’s an achievement (per character), as well as it being the « true end » of the game (and it increases the challenge as you need to beat a buffed elite, sacrifice a chest and sacrifice a hearth).
    - moomin 6y ago
      You don't need Ascension, just to have unlocked Ascension. With that said, I swear it's easier to beat the heart on A1 than A0 because of all the elite rewards. The heart itself, well it's definitely challenging, but it only works for very specific builds. I went to some effort to beat it once on each character and basically have no intention of doing so again.
tonetheman 6y ago
Man exactly my thought... I am not sure I ever won... I suck :)
banana_giraffe 6y ago
I had a very similar reaction to learning that something like only 8 of the possible deals in the Windows version of FreeCell aren't winnable.
- throwaway2048 6y ago
  I look at freecell as more about finding the solution (including undos) rather than about winning in an absolute sense. Similar to how every (properly designed) sudoku is solvable without guessing, the fun isn't in having solved it, its figuring out how to solve it.

Thinking back on all the games I've lost, this analysis is depressing confirmation that I might just not be that good at this game lol. Super interesting read though!

cableshaft 6y ago

Same. I've played the game for 40 hours and made 40 attempts, and 'won' only 4 times. 2 of them were daily challenges (and don't really count, they include very rule-breaking things), 1 was Standard for Ironclad, and another was Standard for Silent. I haven't even attempted Ascension once yet. It took about 25 tries on Standard before I won my first time, too. I've even watched a few people's playthroughs and going over which cards are better than others and combo well together, and my win rate is still terrible. Just lost again this morning in Act 2 with another Defect run. Meanwhile this guy is saying the best players are winning 99% of the time on Standard, and nearly the same on Ascension level 15? Wow. By the way, for anyone thinking this game isn't really for you, you might want to give it a chance anyway (watch a video at least). I don't usually care for Rogue-likes, and I've been pretty tired of Deckbuilders, but I got into this game hard, pretty much immediately, after putting off trying it for forever and finally deciding to give it a chance. One thing that really makes it awesome for me is that you know basically exactly what the enemies intend to do and how much damage they're going to do to you, so you can puzzle out how to prepare for it, should you kill this person who's going to do 18 damage to you, or reduce their strength, or build up your block to absorb it, or take the hit this round so you can go after something else, etc. If you've ever played Into The Breach, it feels a lot like that, but with RPG battles instead of a Tactical map.

aaronscott 6y ago
Similar for me - there was a real sense of accomplishment on my first win in Slay the Spire on the easiest difficulty setting. To think that players have >90% win rates on that setting, much less on Ascension 20 is remarkable. I've learned a lot from Jorbs - a twitch streamer. It's surprising how much statistics and planning can go into any given fight. It's possible to puzzle out how much of the fight will go ahead of time, with knowledge of one's deck and the enemies moves.
JauntyHatAngle 6y ago
>going over which cards are better than other I mean, that is perhaps part of your problem. There aren't any cards I've not picked at least once and made good use of on ironclad even at A20. The game really is more about building a deck based upon what comes up and constantly reassessing what is actually working in your current deck. Choosing "good" cards based on their overall strength out of context is essentially a brute force approach to winning.
- cableshaft 6y ago
  I'm aware it's contextual and there are different strategies for winning, and there's a reason for each card being in the game. But I wasn't aware of how some cards combo together, or some situations/battles where they might be stronger than others, etc. And there are plenty of discussions online for pretty much every card on how strong or weak people think the cards are overall (like is it worth picking it up if it's offered to you late in a run because the payoff might not be worth it, or if you see you're getting a specific boss that act, etc), and most of the cards have been buffed or nerfed multiple times since the game has come out, so clearly the developers have been convinced that some strong may end up stronger than others on average too (and are trying to keep things pretty even as much as possible, I assume).
  - qazwse_ 6y ago
    One thing you may want to try is sticking to a certain class for a while. It'll give you a better feel for how all of their cards work together, and you won't "forget" about certain aspects of the class. I found that I hit a wall around Ascension 8-10 before I started trying this.
    - cableshaft 6y ago
      Yeah, I agree, good advice. When I decided to win my first standard game, I at first floated around from character to character, but then decided to stick with Ironclad until I won. Took like 20 tries, but I finally made it work. Silent took less tries, currently focusing on Defect.
Latty 6y ago
I have no idea if this will help you in particular (depends on how you play right now), but something counter-intuitive about deck-building in general that helped a friend of mine up his win-rate in StS a lot is that you need to consider the cost of taking a card. StS lets you not take a card when you are offered one, and often this is the best play, particularly as you go later into the game and have a deck that is stacked with powerful cards. Fundamentally having more cards is bad, because it increases variance in what you can draw. Obviously taking a good card can be worth that cost, but often players fall into the trap of assuming the best card of the options given is worth taking, when really the question should be "does this card beat the average card in my deck, or does it dilute the power of the deck", because you are reducing the chance to draw one of the other cards in your deck. Obviously there are edge cases: sometimes something may reduce the power of your deck right now, but introduces the chance for later synergy, which may be worth the cost—especially early on, but in general it is worth considering not taking the card. The ideal deck is always the minimum number of cards that allow you to pull off your win state, everything else is just stopping you getting there (this is also why cards that allow you to draw cheaply are good, and one of the reasons why removing cards from your deck is powerful).
- greenshackle2 6y ago
  An important idea is that you're not only drafting to make a generally good deck, you're drafting to defeat the immediate challenges that are coming up. If you're in Act 2 and headed for an elite, you have to think, "can my deck beat book of stabbing? gremlin leader? taskmaster?". If right now your deck sucks against the book, and you're offered a disarm or caltrops, it might be worth picking it even if it's doesn't generally make your deck stronger. Cause otherwise you might get stabbed to death. On the flip side, Demon Form is a very strong card, but it's practically a curse for most of Act 1, because it's too costly and slow. So sometimes you might skip even a strong card if it doesn't help you right now.
  - Latty 6y ago
    Yeah, I definitely don't mean to imply that the comparison to your current cards is a hard and fast rule, but more that it's a good thing to start thinking about if you never skip cards.
thaumasiotes 6y ago
> By the way, for anyone thinking this game isn't really for you, you might want to give it a chance anyway (watch a video at least). I don't usually care for Rogue-likes ...Slay the Spire has nothing in common with roguelikes?
- lincolnq 6y ago
  It’s procedurally generated, dungeon crawler, with collectible items and permadeath and resource management. I don’t like arguing over definitions, so call it whatever you want, but those are a number of components that feed into the appeal of roguelikes!
Impossible 6y ago
You're better than me at the game. I have close to as many hours and attempts and I've only ascended once. Although probably should be at ~3 ascensions and made a couple blatant tactical mistakes fighting bosses with The Silent.
debaserab2 6y ago
I was about where you were 40 hours in. Then I bought this game on switch so I can take it everywhere with me and have since dumped about 500 hours into the game. I only recently got all characters to A20. Still working on A20 heart kill and a few other achievements. It's always intrigued me seeing other people pick up the game and master it much more quickly than I did. There's some people that get their A20 heart kill just 100 hours into the game. I really enjoy the feeling of slowly but steadily gaining knowledge and intuition about the game - in the 500 hours of play there's been no shortage ah-ha moments throughout. Truly one of the best $/entertainment value games I've ever purchased.
hnick 6y ago
A1 is usually considered easier than A0 because you get more elites but they aren't very punishing yet. You're possibly bringing baggage from other deck builders, mentioning combos and better cards is an example of this. Generally you want to judge cards for what they do for you right now (in the next few fights) to maximise rewards and build long term value. Try not to build into "just in case" combos or synergies or you bleed HP before it shows up. The exception is if you are confident your deck can handle the hallway fights then you might take picks for the boss, and if you can handle that then you can start building for the future. Apart from that, general pickup rules are: Act 1 is front-loaded damage, Act 2 is AOE damage with some damage scaling for the boss, Act 3 is scaling offense and defense (without damaging your other factors too much). You usually want to be plugging holes rather than building on your strengths but there are always exceptions. One example: A single dark orb can be enough to kill Champ on Act 2 as defect. Any more is excessive.

masklinn 6y ago

Likewise. I regularly die in act 1, and after finally achieving ascension 10 with all characters I’ve spent weeks trying to kill the heart at ascension 0 with ironclad with little success. I have fun though, so that’s nice.

cableshaft 6y ago
You can kill the heart? I thought that was just kind of like a fun thing you can see at the end of a win where it shows how much damage everyone has done with it, kind of like a communal scoreboard. There's more to it than that? Note: I've only played standard runs and daily challenges so far.
- hypersoar 6y ago
  In ascension > 0, there are three keys you can collect through the run by choosing them in lieu of other rewards. If you get them all, there's an abbreviated Act IV to play: a hearth, then a shop, then a special elite, then the Heart. The Heart is much, much more difficult than the Act III bosses.
  - cableshaft 6y ago
    Interesting. Is there an incentive to go that route beyond just saying you managed to do it? Not that I need more than that, just curious.
    - masklinn 6y ago
      There’s an achievement (per character), as well as it being the « true end » of the game (and it increases the challenge as you need to beat a buffed elite, sacrifice a chest and sacrifice a hearth).
  - moomin 6y ago
    You don't need Ascension, just to have unlocked Ascension. With that said, I swear it's easier to beat the heart on A1 than A0 because of all the elite rewards. The heart itself, well it's definitely challenging, but it only works for very specific builds. I went to some effort to beat it once on each character and basically have no intention of doing so again.

tonetheman 6y ago

Man exactly my thought... I am not sure I ever won... I suck :)

banana_giraffe 6y ago

I had a very similar reaction to learning that something like only 8 of the possible deals in the Windows version of FreeCell aren't winnable.

throwaway2048 6y ago
I look at freecell as more about finding the solution (including undos) rather than about winning in an absolute sense. Similar to how every (properly designed) sudoku is solvable without guessing, the fun isn't in having solved it, its figuring out how to solve it.